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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: No Phonology!

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Aug 2015 15:23:41 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (63 lines)

We seem to have fallen down another rabbit hole, but one more time: I'm talking about a hypothetical written language that has never been associated with a spoken language or anything else.  It's a thought experiment, an example of "phonology" in the broader sense we were taking about in these threads. In such a hypothetical language, the only logical meaning for "phoneme" I can think of is identical with "grapheme". Unless there is some other candidate I'm missing that exists purely in the realm of a never-spoken written-only language...

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 2, 2015, at 14:20, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Well, two thoughts:
> 
> First, a grapheme is going to be realized as graphs. So there is still some
> issue analogous to phonology.
> Second, I don't know of any writing system that ignores phonology. Even
> most Chinese characters have phonological elements.
> 
> Of course, people have always wanted an idealized writing system
> independent of phonology and lexemes, like Leibniz's idealized
> (mis)understanding of Chinese. I doubt such a system is possible.
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> I was speaking of a purely-written language. No spoken, signed, signaled,
>> or any other form exists - just the script. What is a phoneme in one of
>> those if not a grapheme?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2015, at 13:13, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A grapheme isn't actually a phoneme necessarily, since more than one
>>> grapheme (or set of graphemes) can be used to represent a phoneme. {ph},
>>> {gh}, and {f] are all used to represent English /f/.
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 2, 2015, at 10:16, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you define phoneme as "The smallest contrastive
>>>>> linguistic unit which may bring about a change of meaning",
>>>>> then fair enough.
>>>> 
>>>> So for written-only languages, I suppose a grapheme is actually a
>> phoneme
>>>> as well. I can buy that.
>>>> 
>>>> As one of the folks who, through my own ignorance, helped kickstart the
>>>> argument about the extended definitions of phon{e,eme,ology,...}, I must
>>>> apologize again for the derailment.  While etymology is not destiny, in
>>>> this case the root is so close to the surface that I tripped over it. :/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Jason Cullen
>>> MA Applied English Linguistics
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jason Cullen
> MA Applied English Linguistics

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