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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: No Phonology!

From:

James Kane <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Aug 2015 14:03:10 +1200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (58 lines)

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>
> Hello, James!
>
> So I don’t think we should consider ‘orthography = phonology’, although in
> some languages (I’m thinking of Spanish and Ukrainian in particular, or
> Tagalog to use a non-IE example), this might be useful. But we have to be
> careful.
>
>
​​You seem to be misunderstanding me. I emphasised that I was using that
'broad' definition of phonology that has been discussed to death in this
thread - in that it's a system of meaningful units of communication.
Obviously orthography isn't always one-to-one and onto with the spoken form
of a language, and English is a fantastic example of that. I don't think
anyone could claim that - it's not completely true even for languages like
Spanish.

However I'm not talking about that. I'm imagining language as a nebulous
set of mappings between semantics, logic and morphosyntax - essentially
just the grammar, in a very formal-linguisticky sort of way. The phonology
is simply a way of communicating that language, and in this sense agrees
with the broad definition (i.e. the speech-independent definition). If we
make a cipher of English, it's still English, right? All that's changed is
that the encoding of the English language into a phonological form. In this
way I'm saying that, if we use this broad definition of phonology, then
writing systems also qualify, as do whistled forms, signed forms (as in
Manually Coded English). Some may be  less natural than others (as in
Manually Coded English) or more lossy (as in whistled forms).

Also, no-one at any point was claiming the existence of
language-independent semantic writing systems. UNLWS is certainly a
language, it's just that it has no spoken representation (I'm not sure why
you think it's doomed to fail, there do exist short texts in it and it has
in fact been used in communicating through translation relays).

It does seem you're getting caught up on the fact that the spoken form of a
language is so closely tied to the language itself (indeed even in the
brain itself). But is it an integral part? Obviously deaf signers don't
have phonetic forms, but manual-spatial forms. You cite Classical Chinese;
but this isn't at all language independent, but is simply an unweildy
encoding of Old Chinese. Say someone who couldn't speak or read Chinese
learnt Classical Chinese. The characters would be the primary
representation of lexemes and morphemes for that person, as it would be
impossible to have any phonetic form tied to those words. I'm sure it would
be a very, very difficult task, but would it be impossible to learn a
language without a phonetic realisation? I'll repeat my earlier question:
what about a person, deaf from birth, who couldn't speak or read lips but
could read and write English. Would that be impossible?

Some of your other claims seem weird as well (e.g. L2 communication is
clearly possible), so it seems, as Logan said, that we're talking past each
other. Much of this conversation is a matter of definition.

James

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