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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Alien language research

From:

Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 1 Aug 2015 09:36:24 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patrik Austin
>Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 5:35 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Alien language research

[...]

>> Hmm. There certainly is a logical necessity that given three parts, they can be arranged in six ways. But by choosing three primary parts you're making a choice. It *might* be a sort of obvious choice - S, O, and V feel like real things - but it might also be us comparing things forcibly to English. Or, even if all languages do have subjects, objects, and verbs (or, we add the exceptions to the model), there's still more than logical necessity behind this. 

>WALS is a little cautious about declaring S, O, V as extremely important; however it is used extensively in typology, and word order classification has been a principal method for anthropologists and linguists in learning indigenous languages. To my understanding all languages have these constituents, but - as opposed to English - it's more common to mark them with a case or particle (English is "zero-marking"). If you don't think it's logically necessary, you can create a conlang that lacks one or more of them and see whether you can translate anything to your language.

Whether S, O, and V are fundamental is a bit beside the point. I argue that weighing the six arrangements of them equally is making an interesting set of assumptions, beyond the "principle of indifference" alone.

>> That's an interesting comparison. It's true Darwin had a lot of evidence to back up his claim, but he was still just arguing for the existence of "some gene", or that is, some physical basis for variation and heritability of traits.

>I think he was more practical than that. People often think that evolution theory is Darwin's invention, but that's not true at all. His was the theory of natural selection which aimed to explain _how_ evolution works. After his journeys Darwin did a lot of research in his garden with plants and pigeons to demonstrate how selection affects the offspring. He did also theorize about something that would later be called 'genes', but that wasn't his focus.

I definitely misstepped there, especially using the word "just" - Darwin did not "just" argue some physical basis of heritability existed. But I still think it's an apt comparison; Chomsky did not just argue for a language organ or language module in the human brain. He also did some nice math, certainly either creating the mathematical objects which bear his name or bringing them to prominence.
 

>Actually Darwin's theory turned out to be wrong. Theorists before Darwin knew that breeding played an important role, but they thought it couldn't explain it all thus leaving room for God's guidance. Origin of Species demonstrated how natural selection functions as a single mechanism behind evolution thus making creation redundant. Later biologists however found that this mechanism alone is too slow to explain what happens in reality; mutations are also important (and so the "God factor" might still be valid… ;)

What is this based on? Darwin wrote a whole book on variation after the Origin (but which he originally intended to include), which even contains a brief argument against the idea that God produces the variation. Darwin was very conscious that variation was necessary.

But his theory certainly does have non-tautological parts; speciation for example. It's just the core idea of natural selection that seems mathematically necessitated.

>So what's tautological about UG? [...]

UG, viewed as a tautology, says that if all humans have language capacity in common then all humans have something in common.

>But seriously, Chomsky was let go too easily. For instance his idea of "poverty of stimulus" was just counter-intuitive. People saw that children learn language from their parents. Chomsky's conclusion: it can't be just from their parents. And he never delivered any evidence. 

Viewing UG as a tautology again, the argument would be that if it were just the parents at work, then cats raised as humans would acquire language (or for that matter, so would rocks). Poverty of stimulus is an odd mathy-fied way of saying this because it seems to imply some larger amount of stimulus would do a better job.

As I understand it, though, the original presentation was based on the infinite nature of language. So it's very much like saying people can't have learned about numbers just from education. There are infinitely many numbers so learning by example can't work. Therefore we must have some innate component which understands numbers.

>> I don't personally think that. But I also don't know whether it's right to call mathematics 'a tool rather than the hand or the mind itself that uses the tool', and since we do some of our thinking with language I'd apply the same there, even moreso. 

>I think that thinking itself is a tool (not the mind), and language and mathematics are ways to organize our thinking. This is of course evolutionary in that it once became vital for the survival of our species to be able to communicate observations such as "There were three bears in the bush. One went away and now there are two." What matters more generally is the perception of reality that is common to a variety of animal species.

Consciousness is a tool which uses itself. Or we could take the selfish gene view and say consciousness is a tool for propagation of various genes. Your view seems interesting but I feel I'm still missing some point.

>However syntax or mathematics is not biological, and must depend on possibility. I think the topic "Alien language research" is actually pretty good for crystallizing this idea: it's often said that an alien syntax "could be anything"; however it's impossible to think of a functional language (expressive and learnable) that isn't in its essence similar to the languages of the world; and one that can't be derived from the fundamental grammar.

Requiring that the language be learnable seems to strangle the thought experiment. Here, I will propose an alien language.

Rather than try and come up with an alien syntax, I'll base it on a different principle in order to hopefully guarantee it's alien. Acknowledging the philosophical landmine I'm stepping into, let me assert loosely that human language is based on conventional signs. Signs can be consciously produced in order to refer to objects or facts in the world, and human language has a clever system of breaking down and recombining these things which allows a manageable amount of conventional agreement to enable a large number of claims and referents. Furthermore, the "objects or facts" language can reference have at least a decent correspondence to the pieces which make up our actual beliefs and thoughts, which is convenient.

Suppose an alien language were a little more like facial expressions, or like the immune system. We could imagine a highly developed system of communication which wasn't directly consciously available, often not directly consciously controllable, but still transferred a wealth of information. Like reading someone's face, the species using this might have a vivid sense reading the intention behind the communication, without knowing exactly what sensory cues were at work or what claim was being made.

I'm not describing this very well. ("language, but you're not conscious of it" isn't the whole idea.) I'll lean more on the immune system metaphor. As I understand it, healthy cells in multicellular organisms produce certain chemicals which get presented on their surface, basically to say "I'm healthy". This is sort of a hash function of all the metabolic activity inside the cell, acting as a checksum like md5. Sorry for the computer metaphor but I don't know how else to think of it. Rather than being specifically programmed to signal when some specific stuff goes wrong, by presenting something more like a hash, the immune system is made aware when any of a huge number of possible things goes wrong.

This system is being used for one bit of information - "is this cell healthy?". But we can imagine it being used for more. The feature I'm interested in is that these surface presentations the cell makes are mostly unchanged by normal metabolic activity (as far as the immune system is concerned), but are very likely to look off if something abnormal happens.

So, what I'm imagining is a herd of alien herbivores with complex signaling headgear. There evolution would start out somewhat analogous to the immune system - the highly visible headgear serves sort of as a checksum of the animal's mental state, and during normal foraging activity is in a small, easily recognized set of states. When a predator, or other anomaly, shows up, their mental state is disturbed enough to map to a different, flashy state of the signaling appendages. Having the headgear's position be sort of a "hash" of the mental state has the advantage that each novel threat automatically gets a different signaling state, which the herd can learn to react differently to, or even learn to ignore.

This would have to develop a lot to become a language - I'd imagine it growing to include two or three hashes, some more sensitive than others and focusing on different brain areas. The creatures would memorize many of the familiar brain-states made visible by the mechanism, but could only reproduce them by actually, in some sense, thinking the same thought; not by conscious muscle control. (I must suppose some mechanism keeps genes for consciously lying from becoming common; perhaps there's no convenient mutation for that.)

I can't concoct the whole argument unfortunately. It's easy to imagine such a different language actually turning out just like human languages, with complex concepts being transferred from one creature to another by deliberately thinking through simpler concepts in some sequence obeying a grammar. The language could even have vocabulary - though there might be a near-infinite set of thoughts with unique representations, there would be a smaller set which was recognizable to the general population. But I'd rather imagine a society where language learning consists of learning to think in a way fairly similar to everyone else, so that the external picture of your mind looks serviceably similar; where people frequently put effort into having the same thought someone else did, in order to find out what the thought was; and where, like with facial expressions, people have a somewhat justified, vivid feeling of understanding each other at a glance.

That's the closest I can come to spelling out a system that's totally different - but my intuition is that it can be done. There are other strings to pull at, other analogies to use for making odd communications systems.

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October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
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April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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