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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Alien language research

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:43:46 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (66 lines)

> ...I'll keep this email from getting any longer by not expanding on that; hopefully it's halfway clear. Thanks for the interesting responses, and sorry I'm so longwinded! 

Thanks for your very interesting responses!

> I guess the way I originally phrased things, what I was saying was that we're making an interesting set of assumptions in order to get to a point where we can apply the Principle of Indifference.

I'm thinking let's apply the POI and when we see it doesn't work, we have to look deeper. You know how to do the math, but I was thinking the next step would be taking different things into account, such as the following:

- conjunctions
- AUX - V order
- adverbs and adverbials
- word order in main clause vs. sub clause
- zero-marking vs. overt marking
- preposition vs. postposition vs. case
- other possibly relevant factors not yet mentioned

One reason why the O/S factor may not be so important is that both could be analysed as (possibly unmarked) adverbials.

I'm actually thinking the way you show how to work the statistical assumptions is just perfect; exactly the kind of work I'd love to see in linguistics in the coming years. There's growing knowledge of language optimality, see e.g. http://www.helsinki.fi/~ksinnema/zero_alt8.pdf but researchers have to use phrases like "…we do not know what is causing this…" I believe that answers can be found with mathematical or statistical methods that look into the phenomena that occur in language when it's being used, and a priori. 

> (Here's the paragraph I'm referring to: "[...] by choosing three primary parts you're making a choice. [...] Or, even if all languages do have subjects, objects, and verbs (or, we add the exceptions to the model), there's still more than logical necessity behind this. The real assumption being made is that there's a connection between the description and the languages we see in the world.") If I may be a bit redundant, I'll just stress: my purpose is to argue logical necessity doesn't get us very far. 

But don't forget I was also proposing a pragmatic factor that we could call optimality although criteria for optimality haven't been established yet. I prefer to say that syntactic structures must be based on logical necessity, and some logical choices are more practical or even more useful than others. This hasn't been studied as much as it should have, but it's emerging.

However, even the mere logical necessity gets us surprisingly far. If you check out the Hodor thread, you'll see that there's a language generated by the grammar S -> a | S -> aS where a's are a set of nouns (roughly), and this elementary language can be used to express everything that any known language can express; and that the parse-trees for this language look pretty similar to any other we've seen so far. It should be easy to prove (applying a step-by-step method) that (1) all formal languages are constructed on this and (2) there are no languages that cannot be traced down to this language.
 
> Languages must randomly, or at least evenly, switch whether subject or predicate comes first in sentences; and it would be reasonable to suppose that when the switch occurs, the object and the verb move together (or some other process preserves this correspondence, e.g. they never move together). 

That could be true as well, and it's all the better if you can somehow find a relevant explanation as to why this happens. And if this never/always happens, you'll probably be able to find evidence in the statistics.
 
> It's not exactly a fallacy to bring evidence for UG from syntax. If there's (biological) UG, there has to be syntax; therefore if there's syntax, *and* we don't already believe there has to be syntax for some other reason, then we must take that as some degree of evidence for UG.

That's surely how Chomskyans see it, but the *and* is redundant, and therefore it's a circular argument. Is it not the same as this classical example: (1) The Bible is true because God says so; (2) God exists because the Bible says so.

Also let's be clear what exactly Chomsky says; this comes from Wikipedia: "The basis to Chomsky's linguistic theory is that the principles underlying the structure of language are biologically determined in the human mind and hence genetically transmitted.[122] He therefore argues that all humans share the same underlying linguistic structure, irrespective of socio-cultural difference.[123] In this he opposes the radical behaviourist psychology of B.F. Skinner, instead arguing that human language is unlike modes of communication used by any other animal species.[124]"

I think this would also suggest that no other species in the Universe has a language whose structures could be placed within the spectrum of all human languages, accepting the notion that evolution is extremely unlikely to occur the same way twice. Well, here's a random quote: "There are many more powerful arguments that there is one common ancestor to all living thing on earth. Each living thing shares exactly the same mechanisms for preserving information - DNA, copying the DNA into RNA and then translating this into protein. The idea that this would evolve in the same way twice seems completely unlikely."

As I think I can prove, all human languages can be traced down to a common structure, although the actual "ancestor" grammar may be more complex than the one I've given so far. This would mean that, to give any credibility to the Chomskyan idea, the common denominator for all languages would have to be roughly as complex as the DNA to leave enough room for the possibility of non-Human languages. This is not what I would argue in the first place because I'm not advocating a biological explanation.
 
> Not sure what you're saying with the Darwin stuff. But then, I've always preferred to think of the Modern Synthesis as more of an addition than a change (ignoring Darwin's gemmule theory, because Darwin knew it was just a guess). Even e.g. the Neutral Theory doesn't disagree with Darwin, it just adds that in the absence of selection, genetic drift will lead to traits becoming dominant in a population (and states that this is common). 

Well, it's all evolution theory.
 
> I meant my argument there as a bit of a reductio ad absurdum! Well, sort of. We can make exactly the same argument for other infinite mathematical things, like the set of all algebraic structure, the class of all sets, the category of all categories, or even ones which haven't been discovered yet. Something can be infinite but reduce to a few simple rules; and this is true of all these examples. 

Alright, so it's a system which makes infinite use of finite means.
 
> So, I would argue, there is not something biologically shared which allows us to learn numbers or these other mathematical objects; and I feel fairly confident saying there's nothing physical about the world that constrains them either, and if other Universes exist, 1+1 = 2 will be true in them. But intelligences in other Universes, or on other planets, might not happen to decide numbers are very useful. 
 
> But I do think *most* intelligent species would use numbers; and perhaps most would understand the concept of sound. 

Exactly. Any intelligent species would have to understand that if there are two rocks on the ground, and you add another one, then there are three rocks. Also, talking of this universe at least, any life as we know would have to be in a place where there's sound (i.e. not in space), so it's quite likely that any complex creature has hearing. It's also quite likely that such creatures would live in a place where there's light (to allow photosynthesis), so they're also quite likely to have vision.
 
> I'll resist the temptation to try and construct another scenario. But, I take it you don't buy my idea that they could have "no symbols" in the sense that they can't produce the movements without actually having the thought? That inability to lie, or ever stop talking actually, is one of the main differences from sign language. The other is the "hash" thing, the idea that within certain tolerances, each unique brain state has a unique representation. (The "tolerances" would differ in different parts of the signaling mechanism, but that's just a detail.) 

I guess it's imaginable, but the experience we have from this planet suggests that although subconscious body language is indeed very common, it doesn't build up to a syntactic language. Furthermore, such communication doesn't seem to serve much purpose (unless we're on a hyper small-talk planet ;) I actually think that Darwin's slogan "survival of the fittest" is genuinely false - in truth evolution produces individuals that are *as unfit as possible* in the sense that if they were any more unfit, they wouldn't survive. Evolution doesn't produce complex ("expensive") properties just for fun; although mutations do allow some degree of this (anyway this is why people can't fly, for instance).
 
> Oh, but suppose we had an alien species with such precise communication! It seems like a biological universal grammar could provide the uniformity necessary to allow that sort of brain-to-brain transfer. But it could also be that the aliens learn after birth to think exactly in the same manner as those around them, in order to have the thoughts transfer in a meaningful way. It might be just as confusing to figure out whether UG is true on their world as on ours! 

True ;)
 
> Another interesting point: in order for such telepathy-like communication to enable discussion of some sort, the creatures would need to be able to receive each others' thoughts, but hold them apart from their own thoughts; that is, *understand* what the other is thinking, as opposed to just being externally forced to have the exact same thought (hallucinate the same sights, etc.). But this implies there's some types of experiences which can't be telepathically transferred: especially the experience of receiving someone else's thoughts and comparing them with your own. 

Well, you know. Some mammals have four stomachs…

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June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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