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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Glottal stop in German (was: No Phonology!)

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2015 13:42:27 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

> I would indeed take [ŋ] to be a realization of /ng/ for all dialects of
English

In that case, what determines whether /ng/ becomes [ŋg] (finger) vs just [ŋ]
(singer)?

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 1:28 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> J. 'Mach' Wust, On 05/08/2015 07:14:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:08:48 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>
>> The German glottal stop
>>> certainly is not an "ordinary" segmental phoneme: it occurs only in
>>> syllable onsets, never in codas, and only when no other consonant is
>>> present in that onset,
>>>
>>
>> Such distributional restrictions can occur in ordinary phonemes.
>>
>
> You're replying to Joerg, I acknowledge, but in my message that Joerg was
> replying to I hadn't disputed that such distributional restrictions are
> possible; rather I'd noted that an analysis with a distributionally
> restricted phoneme is more complicated than the alternative.
>
> In English, /S/+C in onsets (_shmuck, shlong, shnozz, shtoom,_ etc.) is
> restricted to word-initial position. That's not exactly an instance of a
> phoneme confined to a particular position, but it is an example of a
> particular phonological configuration restricted to word-initial positions,
> so I accept there are instances of such restrictions.
>
> For instance, German (or English) /h/ has this exact distribution,
>> while /ŋ/ (if it is counted as a phoneme and not a realization of
>> /ng/) has an opposite distribution, which led to the question why two
>> sounds are not allophones of each other when they cannot be in
>> opposition.
>>
>
> FWIW, I would indeed take [ŋ] to be a realization of /ng/ for all dialects
> of English. /h/ is more challenging to deal with: I have an analysis of
> English in which [h] is a position-sensitive realization of a phonological
> element that isn't itself restricted to those positions in which it is
> realized as [h], but it's too elaborate to essay a quick and comprehensible
> description here. I don't know German well enough to know whether these
> analyses would extend to German (-- tho I had supposed that in German
> /h/=/ç/=/x/, which would not be the case for present-day English (except
> maybe Scots)). At any rate, to repeat what I said above, the challenge is
> to find the simplest description; we don't start out with a specification
> of what is impossible, and specifications of impossiblity enter into the
> description only if they serve to simplify it.
>
> I think there are two reasons why the glottal stop is not normally
>>>
>> counted as a phoneme of German: (1) It only occurs in certain
>> varieties, while others do not have it, and (2) it is not written.
>>
>
> You may well be right, because standard analyses of phoneme inventory tend
> to be based on tradition --- self-perpetuating standardness. But that
> doesn't mean it's not actually better to not count [?] as a phoneme.
>  --And.
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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