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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Glottal stop in German (was: No Phonology!)

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2015 15:17:06 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

On Wed, 5 Aug 2015 16:39:19 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>On 05.08.2015 08:14, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>
>> Such distributional restrictions can occur in ordinary phonemes. For
>> instance, German (or English) /h/ has this exact distribution, while
>> /ŋ/ (if it is counted as a phoneme and not a realization of /ng/) has
>> an opposite distribution, which led to the question why two sounds
>> are not allophones of each other when they cannot be in opposition.
>
>/h/ and /ŋ/ are phonetically so different that considering them the same
>phoneme is ridiculous.  Which bundle of phonetic features cuts this
>"phoneme" out of the human phonetic space without including any other
>sound that is used in these languages?  And certainly, if you ask a
>native English speaker to pronounce the word _hang_ backwards, you
>probably don't get anything even remotely similar to [hæŋ].  It is not a
>phonemic palindrome!

Of course, the question whether /h/ and /ŋ/ can be allophones seems
ridiculous at first sight, but it was seriously raised (and
dismissed) back in the days of pure structuralism. If I am not
mistaken.

>> The glottal stop only
>> occurs in certain varieties of Standard German, among these the
>> Northern variety that has the most prestige since the raise of the
>> Prusso-German empire in the 19th century (one might call it the
>> Prussian pronunciation).
>
>True.  Not all German speakers always have the glottal stop; some have
>no glottal stop at all, and some only in word-initial position but not
>word-internally (e. g., the word _aufatmen_ has only an initial glottal
>stop and none in the second syllable).  The fact that some varieties
>have lost it of course doesn't mean that it is not a phoneme.  Dialects
>can vary in their phoneme inventories, and deletion rules aren't
>particularly rare.

You are of course right that different varieties often have different
phoneme inventories. In case of doubt, though, I think it is a good
thing to consider the other varieties. If I can freely choose between
two different phonological analyses for variety A, I would rather
choose the one that does not look totally awkward with regard to
variety B.

Also, it is not clear whether the glottal stop was lost in some
varieties, as you suggest, or whether it was introduced in the other
varieties. The evidence for an Old High German glottal stop seems to
lie in the alliteration between vocalic onsets with different vowels
(though there are other explanations for that which do not resort to
a glottal stop). However, contractions such as _gibu ih > gibuh_
suggest that there was no glottal stop.

Renata Szczepaniak takes the view that Old High German did not have
glottal stops and puts it in a (IMHO very interesting) wider
perspective. She argues that there was a general shift from
syllable-centric Old High German to word-centric New High German, a
distinction that roughly corresponds to the distinction between
syllable-timed languages and stress-timed languages. In the course of
this shift, many features were introduced that optimize word
boundaries. The glottal stop is only one of these features. Others
include the reduction of unstressed vowels to schwa or the
lengthening of open stressed syllables (see especially Renata
Szczepaniak: _Der phonologisch-typologische Wandel des Deutschen von
einer Silben- zu einer Wortsprache._ Berlin, New York: de Gruyter,
2007).


On Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:28:01 +0100, And Rosta wrote:

>J. 'Mach' Wust, On 05/08/2015 07:14:
>> On Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:08:48 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>
>>> The German glottal stop
>>> certainly is not an "ordinary" segmental phoneme: it occurs only in
>>> syllable onsets, never in codas, and only when no other consonant is
>>> present in that onset,
>>
>> Such distributional restrictions can occur in ordinary phonemes.
>
>You're replying to Joerg, I acknowledge, but in my message that
>Joerg was replying to I hadn't disputed that such distributional
>restrictions are possible; rather I'd noted that an analysis with a
>distributionally restricted phoneme is more complicated than the
>alternative.

I'm sorry, I hadn't traced back all the posts. BTW, I loved your
thorough explanation of English [ŋ].

-- 
grüess
mach

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