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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Ambisyllabicity and stress-timed languages

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 9 Aug 2015 07:56:31 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (91 lines)

On 08/08/2015 17:09, David McCann wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 15:56:49 +0100 R A Brown wrote:
>
>> I give up.  If syllables and their boundaries don't
>> exist in the speech stream, then there can be no
>> syllabic codas to shorted vowels or do anything else
>> them.
>>
> A syllable is like a phoneme: it's a component of
> language, not a physical object. As Ladefoged and
> Maddieson wrote, "There is no phonetic parameter that
> can be used to define syllabicity in articulatory or
> physiological terms."

It would have been helpful if Dirk had from the start made
it clear (Perhaps he did, but I missed it) that he was
talking about measuring auditory streams, and that when he
was talking about shortening vowels he was not referring to
long and short vowels as they are traditionally understood
in languages that show length distinction of vowels, i.e.
that if, e.g. in a language we have a word [fa:], when a
coda is added added the vowel becomes short, i.e. [fas] and
not [fa:s].  There examples a-plenty to show that such a
statement would be false.

But to be kept being told that claims of a consonant being a
coda is circular is somewhat frustrating.

> Obviously syllables are real, just like phonemes,

Of course they are real; I would argue more real than
phonemes. While people have intuitively been aware of
syllables for millennia, the phoneme concept is more recent.

> but they are what in philosophy would be called
> intelligibles. Their reality is obviously demonstrated
> by the fact that native speakers can (with the occasional
>  uncertainty) identify them: hence syllabic scripts.

Yes, indeed.  In fact when the oldest writing system we
know, i.e. cuneiform, began to develop phonetic syllables to
add to the original ideograms ('Sumerograms') they were
_syllables_.  what is more, unlike many syllabaries,
cuneiform developed both a full CV syllabary and a full VC
syllabary, i.e. the scribes were intuitively aware of
consonant syllable codas.  This system was used for roughly
two millennia and for writing a great variety of different
languages from several distinct linguistic families, so it
must have worked reasonably well.

The more common type of syllabary is the one with just CV
symbols like the Japanese katakana & hiragana, Linear B
(and, presumably, Linear A), the Cherokee syllabary etc. It
is interesting to see examples where people held on to
syllabic writing long after alphabetic writing came alone
which, in theory, should have been easier and would
certainly give a closer phonetic representation of the
language; a notable example is the Cypriot syllabary which
continued to be used in Cyprus for writing Greek for several
centuries after the introduction of the alphabet to the
Greek world.

One interesting thing is seeing how languages such as Greek,
where consonant syllable codas occur, handled this when the
language was written in a CV syllabary.  The way that Linear
B dealt with this is not the same as Cypriot syllabary.

No, the ancients were well aware of the notion of syllable
and had an intuitive feel for syllable boundaries.

> They also affect syllable-edge processes: in Dutch a
> syllable-final stop cannot be voiced.

Of course they do.  The notion of syllable is ancient and
IMO it would be more helpful for professional linguists to
be saying something more positive about syllable-edge
processes, rather than claims for their existence are circular.

But after being rebuffed on this and being consigned to the
kindergarten for not understanding "Hodor", I think I will
go back into lurk mode again.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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