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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: English [ŋ] )was:: Glottal stop in German)

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:35:11 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

On 9 Aug 2015 17:25, "David McCann" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  This whole
> discussion illustrates, from my point of view, the folly of pretending
> that the study of language is a science (in the English sense of the
> word, rather than the French one). People then assume that there is
> one and only true description of every phenomenon. Does English have
> a phoneme /ŋ/? Well that obviously depends on your criteria for
> identifying phonemes.

I agree with all this. As I mentioned recently, I take this variety of
linguistics to be not science but natural philosophy. If we were having a
more thoroughgoingly scholarly discussion rather than a relaxed leisure
chat, we ought to make our premises explicit, since if we don't share
premises there's no reason that our rational minds will share conclusions.
I do, tho, think that purely rational minds sharing premises should reach
the same conclusions.

> The argument is on a par with that among
> astronomers over whether Pluto is a planet, and about as exciting to
> the onlookers.

I am the chief culprit. I love talking about this stuff, but it is
egregiously off-topic (as so many other threads are too, mind you). I shall
try to either impose upon my incontinence a sober costiveness, if not
outright tacency, or at least endeavour to confine to fewer messages my
trespasses.

On 9 Aug 2015 03:11, "Jason Cullen" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> A smaller phoneme inventory is not *simpler. *It's the grammar (i.e. the
> phonological processes) that transforms phonemes into phones that can be
> simpler or more complex.

I agree that simplicity is to be assessed over the totality of the grammar,
tho there is much more to phonology than the rules governing
correspondences between phonemes and phones.

> You've merely made the inventory of one
> theoretical entity (phonemes) in one particular language (English) smaller
> for reasons that seem much more personal and from preference. Also, as
some
> proponents here have admitted, the grammar has been complicated. What
> motivate ellision of /g/ after /ŋ/ in some instances but not elsewhere? If
> anything, I think we know that a theory of /ng/ --> [ŋ] is complex and
> nobody seems to have the free time (or the grant money) to pursue a
fleshed
> out explanation.

I think I gave a pretty fleshed-out explanation over a couple of emails.

Yes, it's not simple, but it's simpler than /ŋ/ theories that have to
confine /ŋ/ to morpheme-final position (or codas before /g/). The
morphological irregularities we discussed remain in the standard story.

> What motivate ellision of /g/ after /ŋ/ in some instances but not
elsewhere?

I'm not sure what you have in mind. In different messages I've talked about
_singer_ and, later, _doin' nothin'_. I wouldn't mind repeating them and
comparing them to  /ŋ/-based stories, if asked.

> That being said, I still see no reason to replace /ŋ/ with /ng/. I don't
> care if you guys do. Knock yourselves out. Fly a flag with /ng/ over state
> buildings in America's Old South and at Gay Pride parades!

My intent is not to proselytize or persuade but rather to articulate the
best analysis.

> But when are we going to talk about Conlangs again?

In other threads?

> (Regarding Roger Lass, And, most of his writing is available online.)

That's good, tho my googling hasn't found it. But which is the work that
treats of engma and reaches the conclusions you reported?

On 9 Aug 2015 10:33, "Pete Bleackley" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Allowing ŋ to be weakly phonemic seems to me simpler than requiring that
the phonology somehow knows that singer = sing+er, but doesn't know that
longer = long+er

Why should *phonology* know that longer=long+er?

But even on the eng-phoneme story, _longer_ is irregular. How is its
irregularity less objectionable under the eng-phoneme analysts than under
the ng analysis?

> And, while I never expect to agree with your analysis of English
phonology, I do find the ideas you bring up interesting and worth playing
with.

Thank you: that's the spirit in which I offer them -- for them to interest
and be played with.

> One of these days I'm going to apply the following sound changes to the
stops in a descendent of Khangaþyagon.
>
> [-voice] => [+aspirate] / #_, stressed onsets
> [-voice]=> [+long] / V_V
> [+voice] => [-voice] / #_, stressed onsets
> [+voice] => [-voice] / s_
> [+aspirate] => [-aspirate] / s_

Are +voice and +asp actually possible in modern Khangathyagon?

(BTW if it was me doing the conlanging, I'd develop parallel dialects
rather than chronolects (-- a word I think I learnt off Jim Henry).)

> I'd always thought my [æ] was my most prominent northern feature.

Your /æ/, that is, if you will forgive the pedantry. Yes, that is northern,
but (unlike your ng) not specifically north-western.

> See Linguimericks in this month's SpecGram.

I duly saw, read more of the limericks and, I am delighted to report to
you, did more than zero chuckles. I therefore recant my earlier traductions
of SpecGram; let us settle out of court on the damages I owe you.

--And.

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