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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Simpler than Hodor

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:13:51 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (71 lines)

On 8 August 2015 at 02:18, Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[..]
>> Now, that gets everything onto one line, at least, which you might
> count as one rule. Many other people, however, would still count it as
> 3, which have just been condensed into one line for convenience by a
> notational shorthand. (This harks back to prior discussions on how you
> count the number of rules in a language.)
>
> Oh… you mean *clouds* ;) I'm fine with three rules although I agree one command line could actually mean it's simpler than three rules that have to be divided between two or three command lines.
>
> By the way that old discussion was hilarious… When I learned my languages aren't good enough to be Engelangs, I thought: hey, let's call them CloudDuckLangs!
>
>> Even in prose, you can write those down in a bunch of different ways,
> and combine sentences to make them look like one two rules, or even
> one, but no matter how you slice it, all three possibilities have to
> be in there.
>
> So clouds can be counted after all! Now I just need to tell my languages to stop quacking, or at least to do it more quietly ;) Or just accept my inevitable failure - in which case there are some nice logos available: http://tinyurl.com/pbmcu85

So far we've only established that *production rules* can be counted.
But that's not all there is to grammar! And the minimal possible set
of production rules may not be the *best* set of production rules to
describe how the language actually works.

To produce a useable language, you need to know not only what order
words can be allowed to appear in, and what parse trees those
correspond to, but what *meaning* is associated with the syntactic
structures produced by each production rule. That's part of what
Daniel Demski has been exploring, and you'll note that he tried out
several different possible formulations of the production rules for
FL2 in order to try out different formulations of the semantic
interpretation rules that need to be associated with them.

Theoretically, we could count those rules as well, but, just as we
have to agree on a common method of notating and counting production
rules, we'd first have to agree on a common formal method of notating
and counting interpretation rules, as well.

If I've been following correctly, the syntax of FL1 is supposed to be
given by S -> aS | <empty>; in other words "sentences are strings of
words, one after another". Surprisingly, that actually does tell you
More Than Nothing- it means that words can't occur interdigitated with
each other (which is *not* the case in, e.g., iljena!)
But if that's the best we can do for a minimal universal grammar, it's
not very interesting. It's quite in line with what somebody else
recently said in another of these threads on language universals- true
mathematical universals are likely to be trivial and uninteresting.

If it turns out both that FL1 really is usable, and that the syntax
really is that free, and it possible to give a sensible interpretation
to every possible string of linearly ordered words in FL1, then I
suspect we will find a great deal more complexity in the
interpretation rules.

One possible interpretation rule is provided by David Gil's IMA
(Isolating-Monocategorial-Associational) framework- the association
operator, which just says "the meaning some phrase followed by another
word 'a' is something that is associated with both the meaning of the
previous phrase and the meaning of the word 'a'." It is proposed that
that is the ultimate basic semantic rule of all human languages-
sticking words together makes new meanings that have "something" to do
with the meanings of the parts- and everything else is just ways of
narrowing down exactly what the "something" is. But all by itself,
it's not really enough for a useful human language. The IMA model
comes from an analysis of Riau Indonesian, but even Riau Indonesian
isn't actually quite that simple- it does have extra bits of grammar,
in the form of a closed class of function words, to narrow down the
ambiguity.

-l.

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