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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Alien language research

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:46:10 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

Logan Kearsley, On 09/08/2015 20:43:
> I suspect that major difference between Livagian and Palno that
> results in Livagian only needing a single lexical category is that
> Palno associates arguments with sub-expressions, and thus the
> morphology on each sub-expression is required to express whether it
> is representing a particular relativized argument of itself, or the
> proposition, which results in two kinds of syntax nodes. Whereas
> referential arguments are not identified with any one specific
> phrase in Livagian, instead being implicitly described by the
> inflections distributed across multiple monocategorial predicates.
> Does that sound right?

Mostly. Livagian has no referential arguments; rather, it's like a logical formula in which all arguments are variables; binding of variables may be implicit.

> I am getting the impression that Livagian must have some similarity in
> function to J. S. Jones's indexing languages.

Hmm, interesting -- when I'd looked at Jeff's latest lg, it had in fact reminded me of Livagian as it was in the early 90s, c1988--1996. But I couldn't understand Jeff's description well enough to do more than just get that rough impression. I've noticed a similarity between Jeff's indexing ideas and Livagian, but whereas Livagian simply says "What's the best way to unambiguously encode predicate--argument structure of unlimited complexity", Jeff seems to be simplifying and modifying natlangoid grammars, using the terminology of natlang grammar, and concerning himself with semantics; I can't figure out where Jeff fits on the Gnoli triangle, his work seems a long way both from prototypical artlanging and from prototypical engelanging.

> Or possibly Davin, the "phonology on top of set theory" language.

I hadn't known of it before this mention of it. Looking at the LCC slides, the set theoretic interpretation looks Livagianate, but, to the small extent that I can follow it, not the rest.

J S Jones, On 10/08/2015 23:20:> On Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:43:53 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I'm not sure where the similarity is between Livagian and, say, May29 (It would help if all the notes on Livagian were in one place).

What public notes there are on Livagian are scattered over sundry email messages on Conlang and Engelang. You couldn't reasonably be expected to have to trawl the archives to find the fragmentary and minimal info I've posted. But I don't foresee a decent description of Liv (or 2D Liv) making it to the top of my to-do list soon, alas.

Logan Kearsley, On 09/08/2015 20:43:
>> I don't think that monocategoriality or any other sort of excessive
>> simplicity is the main problem. The main problem is how to keep track of
>> which argument places across the sentence share the same value. I know of
>> just two sorts of solution to that. One is Livagian's, which is to maintain
>> an abstract list of argument places in the sentence so far, and encode with
>> inflections interactions -- list-merging operations -- between the
>> arguments of the rightmost word in a phrase and the arguments of the
>> sentence so far. The other solution is every other loglang I know of's,
>> including standard notation, which is to give each argument a unique (but
>> recyclable) name. This latter solution is even more unergonomic than the
>> former.
>
> The Palno solution is not quite the same as that standard loglang
> solution. As stated above, it identifies every argument with a
> relativized phrase that projects the referent of that argument as its
> semantic head. If one argument needs to be used in more than one
> position, where one of the positions is not an ancestor or descendent
> node of the other, it uses pronominal predicates; but, while that
> maintains total syntactic disambiguity, there is room for ambiguity in
> pronoun binding.

Unless you have ways to create a position X that is ancestor of positions Y and Z, where neither of Y and Z is ancestor of the other, when you require Y and Z to be cobound (-- kind of a solution used in Livagian from the late 90s to early 00s), then it sounds like Palno can't unambiguously encode predicate--argument structure of unlimited complexity. And in that case I wouldn't count it as a loglang solution.

> I don't worry about that too much because I consider it roughly on
> the same level as lexical ambiguity and polysemy, which I don't any
> loglang can completely eliminate- you'd need and infinite number of
> basic roots for every possible way of slicing up subsets of the
> world!

I would treat natlangoid pronouns as predicates, and relegate the interpretation of predicates to a semasiological module grammar about which I think loglanging has nothing special to say.

> there is a logical equivalence between isolating bicategorial
> languages and inflecting monocategorial languages; and one language
> could be analyzed as either due to the ambiguity of word boundaries
> and the fuzzy line between morphology and syntax. In any case, a
> usable language must encode two different kinds of information: the
> basic conceptual atoms out of which more complex ideas are built,
> and structural information that tells you how those atoms are
> combined and produces compositional semantics.

This doesn't imply bicategoriality based on these two kinds of information. For instance, in 2D Livagian, each conceptual atom corresponds to the set of symbols in a column and each argument corresponds to a row; the structural information consists of the column--row coordinates of the cell a symbol occupies.

A lg can introduce logically unnecessary categorial distinctions, of course, but if we confine ourselves to maximally minimal loglangs then I'm struggling to see a good argument for the possibility of polycategoriality. In any linear notation for predicate--argument structure (-- which is what a loglang is), it seems inevitable that whatever encodes predicate identity is paired with something that encodes the PAS; and separate unfused morphemes could encode predicate identity and PAS, yes; but what I can't currently see is how the method of morphological encoding would necessitate a polycategorial analysis of what is encoded. [But see below in the last para of this message.]

Sorry if I'm being unclear. My own thinking is less than sharp on this question.
  
> An isolating bicategorial language divides those two functions into
> two parts of speech. And it probably says something about human
> cognition that there exist natlangs with exactly that split,

Really? Are you thinking of Riau Indonesian? If so, how does its bicategoriality correspond to the two logical kinds of information?

> but none known that are truly monocategorial. Monocategorial
> languages, on the other hand, must be inflecting, and divide those
> functions between roots (concepts) and inflections (structure). If
> the morphology is sufficiently transparent, then such a language can
> be re-analyzed as bicategorial simply by changing where you choose to
> put the word boundaries.

Ah, I think I get you. I see PoSs as categorizing combinatorial units of syntactic structure, which then map to a corresponding morphophonological stucture (-- in a way I will describe in a reply to Peter that I've not yet written), but you're seeing them as categorizing morphemes, and in that case I understand and agree with your point. Livagian certainly has different classes of morphemes: some classes, including one that is open, encode Concepts and others, all closes, encode Structure. So it is morphologically polycategorial.

--And.

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