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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: English _ng_ (was: Glottal stop in German)

From:

Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 8 Aug 2015 14:42:06 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

A number of attributive adjectives in English resist comparative and
superlative forms. 'Wrong' implies a totality of being wrong, not a
qualified state. We don't usually use 'right' and 'wrong' for mostly right
or kind of wrong... Similar adjectives are 'dead' ('mostly dead' is used
for comedic effect in "The Princess Bride") or 'pregnant' (we don't ask,
"well, how pregnant is she?" "More pregnant than yesterday!"). Of course,
various forms of being 'part right' have become part of the language (to
say nothing of Deng Xiaoping's pronouncement that Mao was "70% right, 30%
wrong"--but which part was right and which was wrong, nobody's ever
ventured to say, although many have their suspicions! Of course, I think
it's appropriate that the author of 'On Contradiction' should get
remembered this way!).  Maybe the dialetheists have something on this. I
think 'mostly wrong', 'more wrong' (i.e. "he couldn't be more wrong" is an
expression you hear these days), and 'the most wrong' are much more common
in spontaneous speech situations that necessitate this kind of nuance,
although I could see many an undergraduate knocking out 'wronger' or
'wrongest' in spontaneous debate over a table (various levels of alcohol
consumption might be party to the generation of these utterances...).

Trubetskoi helped invent morphophonemics, so I'm not sure if Crystal is
right, although I'm sure he's less wrong. ;-)  I also think Crystal's
comment doesn't invalidate archiphonemes; it  just says that there are
alternatives.

Also, a side note: Why does everyone use an 'i' for Nikolai and a 'y' for
Trubetskoy when they are transliterating the same Cyrillic letter, й
(commonly transliterated as 'j' in most academic journals these days)? Is
it because instead of strict transliteration they were writing for an
anglophone audience that would misread 'Nikolay' as [nikolei]? So why not
'Trubetskoi'? And since when has mispronunciation by monolingual
anglophones ever stopped anybody else in transliteration? Most anglophones
pronounce 'Beijing' with a voiced fricative instead of a voiceless
affricate. But I digress... (again, probably speaking last everyone...) ☺

Best,

Jason

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:58 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 07/08/2015 02:47, And Rosta wrote:
>
>> On 6 Aug 2015 23:57, "BPJ" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> *   _finger_ is a single morpheme.
>>>
>>> *   _singer_ is _sing_ + _-er.AGENT_NOUN_.
>>>
>>> *   _longer_ is _long_ + _-er.COMPARATIVE_.
>>>
>>> *   _-er.AGENT_NOUN_ and _-er.COMPARATIVE_ have
>>> different morphophonological properties, at least when
>>> it comes to preceding /ng/. Whether because the one is
>>> derivative and the other inflexional or for some other
>>> reason needs further investigation.
>>>
>>
>> A good idea, but probably wrong. Comparative -er added
>> to adjectives ending in /ng/ other than _long_ &
>> _strong_,
>>
>
> It applies also to _young_.
>
> e.g. _wronger,
>>
>
> _wronger_ and _wrongest_ a comparative & superlative sound
> odd to me.  They are not forms I would used.  I have come
> across _wronger_ used colloquially as a noun (i.e. with -er
> agent noun suffix) meaning "someone who is wrong."
>
> penger,
>>
>
> _peng_ as far as I can make out is a noun meaning "a typical
> Chinese guy more commonly found in Singapore and typically
> with dyed hair, who listens to techno, who speaks in Chinese
> and Hokkien more often than English, and whose English is
> often mangled and hard to understand ."
>
> If this is used an adjective, it is a neologism and probably
> not subject to same rules as adjective whose origins go back
> centuries.
>
> interestinger_,
>>
>
> Once again, it's a form which seems odd to me.  I would say
> "more interesting."  But, in any case, "interesting" is
> itself a compound of the verb "to interest" with the
> participle ending -ing.  The suffix -ing would surely resist
> any form with [g] whatever further suffix was added.
>
> yields the expected [g]-less form. Hence my analysis is
>> that _long_ & _strong_ have suppletive comparatives
>>
>
> ... and presumably _young_ also. I am not convinced by the
> suppletion explanation.  I think, as BPJ wrote, this matter
> "needs further investigation."
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> On 07/08/2015 03:27, And Rosta wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> As explained in earlier messages I don't analyse /ŋ/ as
>> a phoneme, and do analyse it as /ng/. ...  To the best
>> of my knowledge, it was Sapir (in an article in Language
>> from about 1925) who first argued for the /ng/ analysis.
>>
>
> Yes, I had certainly come across the analysis of [ŋ] as /ng/
> many years ago and well before I joined the Conlang list -
> and that was a good few years ago     :)
>
> And may well be right that this analysis has been around
> since the 1920s.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 07/08/2015 05:54, Siva Kalyan wrote:
>
>> I see no one has mentioned “archiphonemes”, which would
>> be an obvious solution to /θɪnk/ vs. /θɪŋk/
>>
>
> In my case it's partly because I forgotten about these
> critters but also because in this instance I think it is not
> necessary.  Of course, if you insist on giving /ŋ/ phonemic
> status, you may want one these to come to your rescue    :)
>
> I cannot answer for And, but I would not be surprise t learn
> than he didn't believe in the validity of the archiphonemes.
>  I am not sure that I do either.
>
> Archiphonemes were, indeed, the suggestion of the Prague
> School phonologist Nikolai Trubetskoy. But, as David Crystal
> observes in 'A Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics':
> "Alternative ways of analysing the problem have been
> suggested, as in MORPHOPHONEMIC approaches."
>
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>



-- 
Jason Cullen
MA Applied English Linguistics

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