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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Simpler than Hodor

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:58:41 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (93 lines)

My copy of PIV-1 has no "kuno". I don't know about PIV-2.

stevo

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 6:27 AM, Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Thanks Daniel, I just noticed your message!
>
> > I'm still tinkering with this, so maybe I'm missing something here, but
> things keep coming down to one or two questions so I'll go ahead and ask
> them.
>
> :)
>
> > Patrik, you give the semantics as [X Y]->"in the X of Y". If matching up
> brackets and applying this semantics was all there is to it, the first
> example sentence, [topic [nom boy] [acc [on hill] house] see], becomes
>
> > In the topic of see.
> In the nom of boy.
> In the acc of house.
> In the on of hill.
>
> > Which is the same as [topic see] [nom boy] [acc house] [on hill].
>
> > Clearly that's not the intention. But what exactly does the nesting mean?
>
> First to make sure, there are two languages; here you're asking about the
> two-category language.
>
> The nesting is obligatory because otherwise you wouldn't be able to know
> what refers to what. In this sentence everything refers to the topic -
> which is a seeing ‒ so other members are embedded. Likewise, it's the house
> that's on the hill, so [on hill] refers to [acc house] and is therefore
> embedded. There are two other possible places for [on hill], but each would
> imply a different meaning for the sentence i.e. either the boy being on the
> hill or the 'see' - the topic or action - being on the hill. Therefore:
> it's not the same.
>
> > That's my first question. My second is, what is meant by your basic
> semantic formula? The English is ambiguous. "In the 'with' of 'dog'" seems
> to suggest something like "in a 'with', specifically the (only) one
> belonging to 'dog'". But the example [acc house] would read "in an 'acc',
> specifically the one belonging to the house". Here and elsewhere, when I
> try to interpret the semantics I end up leaning toward "in an "acc"
> consisting of a house" or even "in an acc., namely the house". It seems
> like your preposition class isn't always asserting the existence of
> something which the corresponding noun owns, possesses, has, etc. Or maybe
> it is?
>
> Like Logan said the anaphorics have to be determined wisely. If there are
> none, as is the case at this point, it could be anything. This is a
> language that lacks articles - which is quite common - so the English
> translation is a matter of liking. For instance, in Finnish you would use
> phrases like "talon vieressä" ("in the beside of the house", literally
> "house-of beside-in" i.e. beside the house; there's no saying it shouldn't
> be "in a beside of a house"). Anyway the answer should be yes indeed, for
> instance the house has a beside, and the dog has a with (Finnish 'kanssa' -
> fossilised location word + an ending that looks like the inessive). The
> Esperanto dictionary PIV actually has the noun 'kuno' for a 'with'. It
> surely is semantically possible. If you want an English place-noun, you
> could use company: with the dog = in the company of a dog: [company dog] =
> [with dog]; not to be confused with an enterprise (these could be company1
> vs. company2).
>
> Anyway, according to the definition, "the accusative of the house" means
> "the form of the house where the house is the object". 'Form' is probably
> not the best word, but it is in my English dictionary. It should be
> something like status or position. In Finnish we have the word 'sija' for
> case, an old word for place.
>
> This is actually not the same as the house being the accusative (hence in
> this language you can't properly say [object house]); nor the with being
> the dog. The with is what's with the dog, so it can't be the same as the
> dog, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.
>
> So, cross over: > "in an "acc" consisting of a house" or even "in an acc.,
> namely the house".
>
> > Giving different answers to those two questions, I've come up with what
> seems like a dozen variations of the language. Many of them seem
> functional, but unless I'm fooling myself they're not the same as one
> another, and tend to require different definitions of the vocabulary in
> order to make the example sentences work. (Or just don't work with the
> example sentences.) But I figured I'd just ask rather than trying to figure
> out which ones actually work.
>
> Well, just look at the parse tree and you see it works perfectly, whether
> it makes any sense or not. You can express everything unambiguously with
> two lexical categories. That's it basically. But do keep asking!
>

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