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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 2

CONLANG August 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Ambisyllabicity and stress-timed languages

From:

Siva Kalyan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 8 Aug 2015 10:05:51 +0530

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

From what I understand, a syllable nucleus can be identified phonetically as a peak in intensity of the lower frequencies. Perhaps a syllable boundary could be identified as a trough in intensity? But that would hardly provide a unique solution in the case of geminated (voiceless) stops.

Siva

> On 8 Aug 2015, at 2:18 am, Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Garth Wallace <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 4:13 AM, Pete Bleackley <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> It occurs to me that ambisyllabicity should mainly be a feature of
>>>> stress-timed languages, since in a syllable-timed or mora-timed
>> language,
>>>> syllable boundaries will be too salient to permit the necessary
>> ambiguity.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Salient in what way? How does one detect a syllable boundary?
>> 
>> Salient in that if the consonant is a coda of the preceding syllable
>> it affects that syllable's length, but if it's part of the onset of
>> the following syllable it doesn't affect syllable length.
>> 
> 
> This is circular. You're using a claim about syllable structure to define
> syllable structure. It's commonly assumed that coda consonants shorten a
> preceding vowel. So let's say that a shortened vowel is caused by a coda.
> So how do you know it's a coda? Because there's a shortened vowel. It's
> circular. (You didn't say how syllable codas affect length, so forgive me
> if I put words into your mouth; perhaps you had a different length altering
> effect in mind.)
> 
> And there may be other reasons for length variation: vowel quality (low
> vowels tend to be longer in duration than high vowels), stress, voicing of
> a post-vocalic consonant, and so on. So shortening itself cannot be the
> evidence for syllable boundaries. Syllables may be (psychologically) real,
> but there is nothing in the speech stream that unambiguously marks syllable
> boundaries; they're not as obviously salient as people seem to suggest.
> 
> I'm not just trolling; I'd really like to know how a syllable boundary can
> be detected. From what I understand based on my (admittedly cursory)
> reading of the relevant phonetic literature, there is no way to do that by
> appealing to physical properties of the speech stream alone. And unless you
> subscribe to a radically innatist theory of language, you have to pay
> attention to properties of the speech stream to explain the acquisition of
> syllable structure.
> 
> 
>> 
>> But couldn't geminate consonants in Japanese be considered ambisyllabic?
>> 
> 
> Yes, geminates can be considered ambisyllabic. If a single consonant is
> linked to both a coda and a following onset, then it's ambisyllabic. If
> such a consonant also has extra length, that can be explained as the
> phonetic realization of this state of affairs.
> 
> However, what people usually mean by ambisyllabicity is a single consonant
> with no extra length serving as both a coda and an onset. For me the
> difference between that kind of ambisyllabicity and the geminate is not the
> structural configuration but rather the phonetic realization of that
> structure.
> 
> This shouldn't be controversial, but I recall this idea (i.e., the
> structural equivalence of geminates and ambisyllabic consonants) being
> received with some consternation by those who take a more traditional view
> of the definitions of 'geminate' and 'ambisyllabic.' For me it's a slam
> dunk, and appropriately separates structural properties from their phonetic
> realization.
> 
> Dirk

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