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CONLANG  September 2015, Week 1

CONLANG September 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlinguistically-variant uchronias

From:

Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:32:54 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

I think the recent example of gender-neutrality in languages is a good one; it seems as if the frequency with which a language compels speakers to reveal certain facts must have had some historical effect at some point. It might be a good way of looking at the question to ask whether a conlanger with a specific agenda could deliberately insert biases and concepts through the choice of language.

It seems obvious that we could, since the only constraint is that degree of mutual intelligibility be held constant. So for example, the conlangs could all lack easy ways of denoting gender, and they could all be given vocabulary reflecting as many concepts of modern physics and biology as reasonable.

These conceptual tweaks would naturally disappear over time, but maybe they could be made to last longer by (for example) trying to think of ways to slip gender back in (or get the science wrong), and making those things sound unpleasant in one way or another.

Another approach would be to try and choose languages with various handicaps: puns which end up confusing in high-stress situations like hunting or war. These problems would get evolved out fairly quickly, but maybe you would get enough big mistakes within the first generation to change history.

-Daniel Demski

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sid
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 1:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: conlinguistically-variant uchronias

If the languages and cultures develop different ideas of semantics and how to interpret the world, then yes, it would be different.

Though in this case, it's related to semantics, which is reinforced and transmitted by language, not created by it.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:24 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Gleki Arxokuna, On 26/08/2015 15:36:
>
>> you think that we can solve the physei-thesei problem from Cratylus?
>>
>
> physei = properties of the named determine properties of the name 
> thesei = no they don't (= arbitrary signs)
>
> This is interestingly similar to, but nevertheless different from, the 
> question I pose, which could be recast as:
>
> Do the properties of the names (taken collectively) determine 
> properties of the totality of the named (taken collectively)?
>
> --And.
>
>
>
>> 2015-08-26 16:15 GMT+03:00 And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>> Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that history is deterministic 
>> and
>>> free from butterfly effects. Now, zip back to 15000 years ago, and 
>>> replace every language by a conlang (of a sort that is not 
>>> qualitatively different from a natlang), in a way that preserves 
>>> existing degrees of mutual intelligibility among communities. Would 
>>> the world 15000 years later be different from today in our chronia? 
>>> How plausible is it, say, that in the uchronia there is this 
>>> language, X, spoken by populations identical to the English-speaking 
>>> populations in our chronia (but inevitably inevitably not called 
>>> _English_ and linguistically quite different)?
>>>
>>> Or: to what extent do the internal workings of a language have 
>>> cultural impact?
>>>
>>> The only example I can think of: phonotactically simple languages 
>>> facilitate the invention of phonologically-based writing, through 
>>> acrophony, and phonologically-based writing facilitates literacy, 
>>> which has significant cultural impact.
>>>
>>> So in my thought-experiment, provided that the uchronian Phoenicians 
>>> (et
>>> al) had a phonotactically simple language, it seems quite plausible 
>>> that the uchronia might differ from our chronia only in the internal 
>>> workings of its languages, with the change made 15000 years ago not 
>>> ramifying (sans butterfly effects).
>>>
>>> --And.
>>>
>>>

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