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CONLANG  September 2015, Week 1

CONLANG September 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: One, Oneself and A

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 6 Sep 2015 22:07:00 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (127 lines)

What is an intransitive demonstrative?

stevo

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 8:55 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 6 Sep 2015 22:36, "Logan Kearsley" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > On 28 April 2015 at 17:24, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > On 28 Apr 2015 19:24, "Logan Kearsley" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 28 April 2015 at 10:24, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:19 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "The(*m) fifth and sixth guests to arrive were speaking
> Gearthnuns".
> > >> >>
> > >> > Again, change were to was, and it works for me.  Them fifth and
> sixth
> > >> > guests was crazy as all gitout.
> > >
> > > It works for me too, but only if the fifth and sixth guests have
> already
> > > been mentioned. I.e. it is an allomorph of _those_.
> > >
> > >> My wife, who went to high school with people who speak this way in
> > >> southern Virginia, is adamant that "Them fifth and sixth guests *was*
> > >> crazy as all gitout." and "Them first people to walk on the moon *was*
> > >> Americans" are correct, but that "Them fifth and sixth guests to
> > >> arrive was speaking Gearthnuns." is not, and it should indeed be "Them
> > >> fifth and sixth guests to arrive *were* speaking Gearthnuns."
> > >>
> > >> She does not know why, quote, "but it is". I suspect it is triggered
> > >> by the difference between a predicate noun / predicate adjective
> > >> construction, with "is/was/were" as a copula, on the one hand, and the
> > >> use of "is/was/were" as an auxiliary verb in the progressive aspect
> > >> construction on the other.
> > >
> > > My hunch was that maybe it has to do with a reciprocal reading, in
> which
> > > case we might expect:
> > > The guests was smoking cigars. (Pronounced "SEE-gars", I don't doubt.)
> > > The guests were kissing in the corner.
> > >
> > > But I'd be really grateful if you could test whether your hypothesis is
> > > correct: I don't know of any other reason to distinguish the copula
> from
> > > the auxiliary verb; in my analysis BE is just a generic auxiliary verb
> > > regardless of its complementation. But I'd like to find out if there is
> > > reason to think this is not so for all dialects.
> >
> > According to my wife, "The guests was smoking cigars." is correct.
> > "The(m) guests were kissing in the corner." is also correct (with
> > either "the" or "them"), as you suspect, but so is "Them guests was
> > kissing in the corner." And, quote, "that one actually comes up in
> > high school!"
> >
> > "Them guests was smoking cigars" is also judged correct. She was
> > unsure about "Them guests were smoking cigars", commenting that what's
> > licit in Southern Virginia may not be the same as what's licit in the
> > backwoods of North Carolina.
> >
> > Them was hugging.
> > *Them were hugging.
> > Them kids was hugging.
> > Them kids were hugging.
> > *The kids was hugging.
> > The kids were hugging.
> >
> > Them was playing.
> > *Them were playing.
> > Them kids was playing.
> > Them kids were playing.
> > The kids was playing.
> > The kids were playing.
> >
> > Them was playing with each other.
> > *Them were playing with each other.
> > *Them kids was playing with each other.
> > Them kids were playing with each other.
> > The kids was playing with each other.
> > The kids were playing with each other.
> >
> > Them was crazy as all git-out.
> > *Them were crazy as all git-out.
> > Them kids was crazy as all git-out.
> > Them kids were crazy as all git-out.
> > The kids was crazy as all git-out.
> > The kids were crazy as all git-out.
> >
> > Them was driven to school.
> > Them were driven to school.
> > Them kids was driven to school.
> > Them kids were driven to school.
> > *The kids was driven to school.
> > The kids were driven to school.
> >
> > Them was students.
> > *Them were students.
> > Them kids was students.
> > Them kids were students.
> > *The kids was students.
> > The kids were students.
> >
> > I will puzzle over it for a while and see if I can extract any
> > conclusions later. In the meantime, there's an empirical data set if
> > anybody else wants to play with it.
>
> Thank you! One thing that seems clear is that intransitive demonstrative
> _them_ requires _was_ (either because there is a rule to that effect or
> because multiple dialects are reported here and the one that allows
> intransitive demonstrative _them_ (at least with human reference) requires
> _was_ more generally).
>
> As for the rest of the data, the asterisks look rather random. Do you see
> any pattern in it? I'd look for further data both showing speaker
> judgements are stable and showing cross-speaker consensus. I'd love to be
> wrong, but my best guess is that either the asterisks are errors due to the
> general tendency of speakers to overasterisk or else the data itself is an
> inconsistent melange of different dialects. But it'd be fascinating to
> establish that that asterisking pattern is accurate and belongs to a single
> dialect.
>
> And
>

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