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CONLANG  September 2015, Week 2

CONLANG September 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Genderizing other pronouns?

From:

Bast Erol <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Sep 2015 17:14:30 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (166 lines)

On 2015-09-07 22:05:44, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Do any natlangs or conlangs have gender-specific first person or second
> person pronouns?
> 

Japanese has what are largely considered to be "gendered pronouns"
in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person, though they're not as exclusive as
"he" or "she" in that they mainly tend to denote "softness" vs.
"hardness".

As such, sometimes what would be considered to be a "feminine"
pronoun will be used by a male when he addresses a superior,
and women will occasionally use the "masculine" pronouns
to sound tougher.  Though by and large most of them fall
upon fairly fixed gender lines.

> And what about a more extensive conjugation table with:
> 

In Japanese:

> 1st per singular male

General:
俺 (ore) and 僕 (boku)
"Ore" is rather rude, and would NOT be used towards one's boss (unless
you wanted to get fired in a hurry) or even towards strangers.

"Boku" is commonly used by male children.

For older men:
わし (washi)

> 1st per singular female

私 (watashi) and あたし (atashi)
Watashi is much more general though, and is commonly used by males,
whereas "atashi" sounds very feminine.

> 1st per singular neuter (for non-gendered speaking entities like robots?)

Does not exist in Japanese, though the only reflexive pronoun in Japanese
can be used this way, and is often done by people who don't wish to use
any of the above.

自分 (jibun)

> 1st per plural male

All plural pronouns follow one of two patterns:
-たち (tachi) sounds more formal
-ら (ra) sounds more casual

So you'd have 俺たち (oretachi) and 俺ら (orera [this one seems to be uncommon,
as I can't say I've heard anyone use it yet, but I'm sure it's used])

僕たち (bokutachi) and 僕ら (bokura)

> 1st per plural female

私たち (watashitachi) and あたしたち (atachitachi).  I've never heard ら (ra)
used with these pronouns, probably because combining a rather formal pronoun
with an informal suffix sounds a bit strange.

> 1st per plural mixed

Chosen from the above based on the speakers preference, though see note
below of how the plural markers are used in Japanese.

> 2nd per singular male

お前 (omae), this is rude, like "ore" above.  Use of this could potentially
start a fight in a bar or with a stranger on the street if they were 
prone to anger.

君 (kimi) casual, but not rude.  Commonly used by male children.

> 2nd per singular female

あなた (anata) also used frequently by males.

> 2nd per singular neuter

Does not technically exist, though as above, Japanese pronouns are not
"gendered" so much as they denote "politeness" (or lack thereof).

> 2nd per plural male

俺ら (orera) rude, as with "ore" above.
獏ら (bokura)

> 2nd per plural female

あなたたち (anatatachi) rather common.
あなた方 (anatagata) this one is rather formal.

> 2nd per plural mixed

Chosen based on preference of the speaker (see note below).

> 3rd per singular male

彼 (kare) though it should be pointed out that this is not (according to
a former Japanese linguistics professor) a pure pronoun, since it can also
conjugate like a regular noun.  Perhaps closer to "male person" than "he".

> 3rd per singular female

彼女 (kanojo) same as above, with same linguistic caveats WRT pronoun
or noun classification.

> 3rd per singular neuter

彼 (kare) can be used this way, but is probably more akin to how "he"
or "man" (e.g. "chairman", "fireman", "mailman") are used in English
as a default choice rather than being truly gender neutral.

> 3rd per plural male

彼ら (karera)
彼たち (karetachi)

Both should be self-explanitory at this point.

> 3rd per plural female

彼女たち (kanojotachi)
彼女ら (kanojora) I'm not a native speaker, but this one sounds extremely
strange to me for some reason, though I don't see why it couldn't be used.
It may simply be that I haven't heard it used yet, even though there are
in fact people who use it.

> 3rd per plural mixed

Chosen based on preference of speaker.  The "tachi" and "ra" suffixes
seem to me to be more of a "you and the others" kind of construction,
so the choice of which one to use would likely be chosen based on whom
they're speaking to in the mixed company.  A "male" pronoun with "ra"
or "tachi" if they're speaing to a male of the group for "you and the
others", and a "female" pronoun when speaking to a female in the group
for "you and the others".

> For a total of 18 forms for each verb in each tense/aspect/mood!
> 
> How fun would that be if most of the verbs were irregular?
>

I have to say that I'm a fan of regular languages, which is probably
a big reason why I was attracted to Japanese in the first place.  My
conlang is even more regular in its grammar than Japanese is (probably 
close to the point of an engelang, though one could almost say that
about Japanese proper).  

Japanese only has three irregular verbs (most people say two, 
because they forget one of them because it's such a minor 
irregularity, that it can slip one's notice), two (I think) irregular 
adjectives, and five (or seven, I can't remember off the top
of my head) honorific verbs that aren't irregular per-se, so much as
they follow their own (slightly different) way of conjucation.

So you'll have to pardon me if I slightly disagree with your notion
of fun :)

-- 
Bast

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