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CONLANG  September 2015, Week 2

CONLANG September 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Genderizing other pronouns?

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:19:02 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:07:37 +0900, Bast Erol wrote:
>On 2015-09-08 14:21:22, "J. 'Mach' Wust" wrote:
>> It is interesting that the different strategies for politeness
>> distinctions in pronouns appear to be very unevenly distributed among
>> the world's languages: < http://wals.info/chapter/45 >
>
>Yes, according to a professor of Japanese Linguistics of mine, while
>the third-person "pronouns" in Japanese are definitely pure nouns
>in a linguistic sense, she also pointed out that even the regular
>"pronouns" can be used in some ways that normally only nouns can be.
>
>Therefore, she said to think of them as being "quasi-pronouns" in
>that while they mostly function as such, they can also be used in
>ways that a pure pronoun could not, and would instead appear to be
>a "pure" noun in those cases.
>
>Also, I think that saying "pronouns are avoided for reasons of politeness"
>is largely true, but I think it's worded in a way that's slightly
>misleading.  I would rather say, "using one's given name is the 
>prefered form of addressing others in Japanese, so 2nd and 3rd
>person pronouns are used sparingly".  It's not so much that they're
>actively "avoided" so much that they're not used when one has another
>option.

The way I understand the analysis referred to in the WALS is not that
Japanese avoids the "quasi-pronouns", but that more generally
speaking Japanese avoids (read: lacks) a system of pronouns proper,
that is, a small, well-defined, and closed-class table of personal
deictics. It is a typological point of view: Why is Japanese unlike
many other languages in having an open class of "quasi-pronouns", but
no pronouns proper? The possible explanation that is referred to in
the WALS seems very promising to me: It might have something to do
with the deep impact of politeness on the Japanese language. But I
cannot judge for myself.


>As a final note, a different professor of linguistics said that he's
>noticed that English is becoming more and more topic-prominent.
>A switch he said tends to happen rapidly in languages, and in
>as little as 50-100 years (if this continues) English might switch
>from being subject-prominent to being topic-prominent.
>
>He gave an example like the following:
>
>Instead of saying, "I took my car to the mechanic to get it fixed"
>people are saying things like, "Oh yeah, my car?  Took it to the
>mechanic and got it fixed".
>
>I'm very interested to see how far this shift will go.

For some reason, a similar tendency was called to my attention when
watching The Sopranos. It seemed to me that some characters would
often utter phrases like: “The car: it’s broken.” Of course, these
still have a pronoun, but it is very pale, whereas the topic–comment
structure seems unusually pronounced to me. I would have guessed,
though, that it is only some kind of (Italian-American?) mannerism.
But I cannot judge it for myself, either.

-- 
grüess
mach

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