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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Expulsion of loglangs from CONLANG-L

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:18:52 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (228 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 20.10.2015 18:49, R A Brown wrote:

> On 20/10/2015 16:28, David McCann wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> But the real point is not that the loglang discussions
>> have been boring and irritating, but that they are not
>> relevant to any conglanger who doesn't work on them.
>
> That applies to any thread about a conlang.

Exactly.  There is nobody here who is interested in every single conlang 
that is being posted about here!  Some of us are into loglangs; others 
are into naturalistic artlangs; some are only interested in discussing a 
particular language or small set of languages (such as the languages of 
J. R. R. Tolkien).

> Artlangs do not exist in the wild any more than loglangs and
> other engelangs.

A few of them, such as Quenya, Sindarin and Klingon, have developed 
small communities of real-world users, but those are just hobbyists 
rather than serious users, let alone native speakers.  Nevertheless, 
people *use* those languages!

> As Lojban certainly has quite a following
> and is used AFAIK in all the ways that one would expect a
> language to be used, it seems to me rather perverse to say
> it is not really a language!

Certainly, Lojban is a language.  It may lack native speakers, but it 
has a community of users.

>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:10:59 +0100 R A Brown wrote:
>>
>>> I see a perfectly good working solution.  It's called
>>> being tolerant of other people's interests and also, as
>>> I do (and others it seems), using the DELETE button for
>>> posts that don't interest us personally.
>>
>> Then why, at the time of the Great Sundering, were those
>>  then on the list not similarly tolerant?
>
> Sigh - because things were *very different* then:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Glosso/Glossopoeia.html#aux_origin

I wasn't around here when that happened, but I have been told that the 
list was overflowing with flame wars between proponents of different 
auxlangs, and several people had left it for that reason.

> There was also, please note, *no* expulsion - it was a
> _sundering_ made by the list administrator for the _benefit_
> of both groups.

As I observed a few days ago, the Great Sundering would have been 
unnecessary if things had been as they are on AUXLANG now, but they 
weren't like that then.

>> Personally, I'm not calling for anyone or anything to be expelled.
>
> Good.
>
> For a start, it is only the list administrator that can
> block emails to the list or set people to NOPOST. No group
> has ever been expelled from this list before.  To begin
> doing so now would IMNSHO be the beginning of the break up
> of the list.

Very much so!  The Great Sundering itself was an instrument of 
regrettable necessity.  It is not a precedent to be followed, it is 
something we sincerely hope it will never be necessary again.

> Even after the 'Great Sundering' discussion of any auxlang
> *as a conlang* has never been banned on this list - and many
> people remained on both lists.  What has
> been banned has been _auxlang politics_ and the advocacy of
> one auxlang over others.

Right - there is nothing wrong in discussing auxlang design and auxlang 
history here.  The only things that have been banned are auxlang 
politics and auxlang advocacy.

>> But when just a couple of people have some overriding
>> interest that clearly not shared by others, might they
>> not consider a private discussion?
>
> How can you actually tell how many are interested?  Many
> people who just lurk may be interested in a particular
> thread.  In the past when a thread has appeared to be just
> an exchange between two or three people, some one has
> suggested that the conversation go private.  I do not recall
> any such email appearing recently,

The request to take a thread to private mail is always legitimate when 
it shows that only a very limited number of members contribute to it, 
but as you say, there may be many people who quietly read the thread 
with interest but do not contribute to it because they feel they have 
nothing of value to contribute, even though they find the thread 
interesting.

Hence, whenever such a request is made, it is time first to discuss 
whether the thread is indeed of no value to others or not.  As you said, 
no such request has been made on any of the recent loglang threads until 
Sid decided to fire a cannon at sparrows and demanded that the 
loglangers be expelled from this list.

>> And when some-one like Sid protests, might others be a
>> little less smug in parading their toleration?
>>
>
> Sid did rather more than protest: he called for the
> EXPULSION of a group from the list.  Expulsion is, in my
> book, a lack of tolerance.  I resent being called smug
> because I ask for tolerance.

100% concurred.

> On the 9th August I wrote:
> {quote}
> ... this list seems to have become a very
> intolerant place.
>
> Back to lurking mode now, and so as not to be tempted to
> delurk again, I'll go NOPOST for a while and look back in a
> month or so's time to see if toleration has returned to the
> list.
> {unquote}
>
> I meant, of course, NOMAIL, because only Alex can set
> someone NOPOST.  But if we're going to have people calling
> for expulsions, and those who call for toleration are called
> "smug", then I must ask myself if I really want to remain on
> this list at all.

Stay here.  Don't let a single crank spoil the party!  Don't allow 
trolls to take over!

On 20.10.2015 20:07, And Rosta wrote:

> On 20 Oct 2015 16:28, "David McCann" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:15:21 +0530
>> Sid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> The loglang discussions are annoying. It's a bunch of opinions and
>>> arguments about linguistic superiority and nitpicks.
>> Hear, hear!
>>
>> But the real point is not that the loglang discussions have been boring
>> and irritating, but that they are not relevant to any conglanger who
>> doesn't work on them.
> I've been trying to fathom why the loglang discussions provoke these
> protests. It surely can't be the reason you give, because firstly a conlang
> of type X can still be interesting to a conlanger who doesn't work on
> conlangs of type X and secondly hardly any of us work on conlangs of every
> type, so a ukase against discussing conlangs of any type some of us don't
> work on would immediately extinguish all on-topic discussion.

Fine.  As you know, I am primarily an artlanger working in the 
diachronic-naturalistic style.  Yet, I find other kinds of conlangs 
interesting, too - not all to the same degree, but many.  I have 
contributed, for instance, to threads about Jeff Prothero's Plan B, as 
you certainly remember.  I *did* skip most of the recent posts about 
loglangs, but I read some others in the same threads with interest, and 
commented on some of them.

Any conlanger should look beyond the rim of his bowl, as there are 
always fresh ideas and insights to discover in different "schools", just 
to have an idea of what kind of things could exist in languages.

> My explanation is that loglang discussion elicits protests because it is
> sometimes so prolific, and discussion of engelangs and in particular
> loglangs gets so prolific precisely because they are so interesting and are
> interesting in a way that is conducive to intense discussion. They pose
> design problems such that multiple minds can agree on the nature of the
> problem and can agree on the extent to which a given design constitutes a
> solution.

Yes.  There is certainly a lot to talk about for loglangers, and for 
engelangers in general.

> I think the same is true even of auxlang design, for those, such
> as Leo Moser, who think the ideal auxlang is a kind of a posteriori
> distillation of natlangs: oodles of meaningful discussion can be had about
> the optimal design based on that premise.

Indeed!  I have discussed such issues in an essay on my conlanging web site:

http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/auxlang-design.html

Certainly, the opinions expressed therein are not shared by everyone, 
though.  I have even considered, from time to time, making a "case study 
auxlang" just to demonstrate how these ideas could work out in 
practice.  But if I shall ever do so, I'd not peddle it as the "best IAL 
ever made".

> Contrast this with, say, interest
> in artlangs: we can unite in our appreciation of, say, Tsolyani or Kamakawi
> or Old Albic, but that union of appreciation still doesn't lend itself to
> intense and prolific discussion.

This may be true to some extent.  But I feel that there has been much 
more discussion of artlangs created by list members when I joined 15 
years ago, than there is now.  People would post their grammar sketches 
here, and these elicited interesting discussions. Today, they just 
upload their grammar sketches to web sites, where they are quietly 
appreciated.  Also, many artlangers are now at places such as the 
Zompist Bulletin Board instead of here.  The result of this is that 
CONLANG seems engelang-heavy, even though the artlangers probably are 
the majority of members here.  But occasionally, interesting artlang 
threads surface here even today.

>> when just a couple of people have some
>> overriding interest that clearly not shared by others, might they not
>> consider a private discussion?
> Every topic discussed here is motivated by an interest not shared by
> others.

Yes.  There certainly is no single list member who is interested in 
*all* topics.  This lies in the nature of mailing lists and similar 
discussion groups.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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