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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: What are loglangs? (Was:: Purpose of formal logic?)

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:56:41 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (93 lines)

On 16 October 2015 at 06:55, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 15/10/2015 17:18, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>>
>> 2015-10-15 18:45 GMT+03:00 R A Brown:
> On 15/10/2015 18:17, Logan Kearsley wrote:
[...]
>> Broadenings that I am more comfortable with would be to
>> say that a loglang is a language which *can* encode
>> arbitrary structure unambiguously (thus allowing that a
>> loglang may also allow ambiguity if you want it, which is
>> probably important for usability), and that a loglang is
>> a language which is *intended* to encode arbitrary
>> structure unambiguously.
>
> I like _intended_; it reflects the intention of the
> author(s).  But I'm not so happy with _can_; I think if a
> loglang allows permitted ambiguity, IMO it is compromising
> its intention.  If the only usable loglangs do permit
> ambiguity then it seems to that this is telling us that a
> 'pure' loglang is not usable by humans for ordinary intercourse.

Hm. We might just have to disagree about "can". But perhaps I can make
my position stronger, or propose a compromise.
If we can talk about a "pure" loglang as a thing distinguishable from
a "not-pure" loglang, or just plain "loglang", then it suggests to me
that there is room for a just plain "loglang" to *allow* ambiguous
utterances when the user desires. And then, to distinguish those that
do not allow for ambiguity in any case, we can add the descriptor
"pure".
But, on the other hand, perhaps we could also theorize that vagueness,
as distinguished from ambiguity, is all a person should ever really
*need*. Then we need to come up with a suitable diagnostic definition
to distinguish "vagueness" from "ambiguity".

>> Although, it may after all be a good idea to leave intent
>> out of it and just refer to "failed loglangs"
>
> I'd rather not do this.  To start referring to "failed
> loglangs" seems to me to be entering a similar minefield to
> that of referring to "failed auxlangs."  I've had enough of
> the latter in my time and don't want to enter another
> minefield     ;)

Fair 'nough.

> Following leads given by Gleki, I came across this
> definition of loglang:
> "... a language in which every utterance is traceable to a
> unique representation in a suitable logic formalism, which
> representation correctly gives the meaning of the utterance,
> and is reached from the linguistic form by automatic formal
> rules (parsing)"

That actually seems pretty reasonable to me. Much of the rest of the
detail from other possible definitions could be inferred from such-
i.e., to count as a "real language", it should be able to express any
arbitrary thought that could be expressed (however ambiguously) in any
other human language. Thus, it must be able to encode logical forms of
arbitrary complexity without ambiguity (so that the interpretations
are still unique), which is pretty close to And's definition.

On 16 October 2015 at 04:44, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[..]
> Using a case grammar inspired approach, with explicit role markers, certainly doesn't disqualify a language from loglanghood, though.  Canonical paaS more or less does the same ad absurdum.  There are _only_ role markers, although these have the specificity of "giver" or "drinkee"; a 'predicate', as Voksigid e.g. would want to have it, is just the collection of role markers that have the same Davidsonian argument in a given sentence.  And canonical paaS is certainly a loglang (though a massively underspecified loglang).

Interestingly, this is pretty much exactly the approach that I came up
with for Gogido, mainly inspired by the experimental auxlang Temenia,
way before I had any introduction to formal logic or knowledge
representation. Also interesting is that this is essentially the same
approach taken by the RDF "semantic web" framework, which I find to be
terribly clumsy but many people have had great success with.

On 16 October 2015 at 10:10, Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[...]
> Here it is: let's take some unnamed auxlang E, which is designed to conquer
> the world.
> It is *engineered* to be that way thus it's an engelang.
> Its grammar is quite transparent, with many regularizations so it can be
> called logical (loglang?).
> Additionally, writing prose and poems is proposed for it (artlang?)
>
> Don't try disprove my reasoning. Instead I'd rather be happy to derive from
> new definitions of those terms (that I hope will be proposed here) why E
> isn't a loglang, engelang and artlang.

In order not to derail Ray's thread, I'd rather not expound on my
opinions of the appropriate definitions for all of those terms. But I
will note that I see absolutely no problem with one language fitting
in all three categories- one can certainly engineer a loglang for
artistic purposes!

-l.

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