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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Principles for IALs

From:

Sid <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:54:56 +0530

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (187 lines)

Sorry, was to "Temporary Conlanger".

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:05 AM, William Wright <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> All of these are obvious, yes. But they're also wrong.
>
> Agreement is redundancy, and usable languages need it. You don't realize
> this, but agreement can go beyond gender and inflection -- for what reason
> do we say "powerful computer" and "strong tea" but not "strong computer"
> and "powerful tea"? Isolating languages rely on this form of redundancy.
>
> You think inflection is complicated, but syntax is not? That's because you
> come from a Greco-Latinate tradition where syntax is ignored.
>
> You really mean "phonemic".
>
> How will you decide what words are gonna be included? You disdain a "large
> vocabulary", after all. What meanings are "basic" and "universal"?
>
> You don't understand lexical distinctions.
>
>
> Sorry, I hate to make assumptions, but was this to me?
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Sid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > All of these are obvious, yes. But they're also wrong.
> >
> > Agreement is redundancy, and usable languages need it. You don't realize
> > this, but agreement can go beyond gender and inflection -- for what
> reason
> > do we say "powerful computer" and "strong tea" but not "strong computer"
> > and "powerful tea"? Isolating languages rely on this form of redundancy.
> >
> > You think inflection is complicated, but syntax is not? That's because
> you
> > come from a Greco-Latinate tradition where syntax is ignored.
> >
> > You really mean "phonemic".
> >
> > How will you decide what words are gonna be included? You disdain a
> "large
> > vocabulary", after all. What meanings are "basic" and "universal"?
> >
> > You don't understand lexical distinctions.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 3:00 AM, William Wright <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't mean to kick old coals, but I might be inclined to disagree
> >> with you about some of your assertions, TC. Who's to say, for example,
> >> that inflections make things complicated? After all, someone speaking
> >> a more synthetic language (i.e. Spanish, Hindi, Bengali, Arabic,
> >> Russian, some of the most widely spoken languages on the planet)
> >> wouldn't find them all that difficult to learn (depending on what
> >> kinds of inflections we're talking about, granted). Furthermore,
> >> inflection systems can be created without much difficulty in such a
> >> way as to permit the easy assimilation of loanwords. The same goes for
> >> tenses (as for inflections); the fact that some languages rely heavily
> >> on the use of tense means that speakers of those languages would be at
> >> a disadvantage when learning the IAL in question. As a final note,
> >> forgoing the use of synthesis *and* that of lexical distinctions
> >> between nouns, verbs, and adjectives would force learners to remember
> >> complicated rules for word order, which ultimately puts them in the
> >> same position that one tries to avoid by getting rid of *inflections*
> >> in the first place; that is, the learners have to remember complicated
> >> rules and learners whose native language does not favor the morphology
> >> of the IAL are at a disadvantage.
> >>
> >> I suppose (IMO) at the end of the day it comes down to learnability. I
> >> mean, regularity and non-equivocation and phonetic scripts are all
> >> well and good, but none of them possesses a significant benefit (as
> >> far as I can see) beyond easing learnability; after all, almost every
> >> natlang gets along fairly without at least one of them, if not all
> >> three. Thus, the potential future native speakers of an IAL are not
> >> really what one has to worry about: they will get along just as fine
> >> as the rest of us do. The problem (or at the very least the *first*
> >> problem) is making learning the language easy for "non-native"
> >> speakers (i.e. everyone, at least at first). Thus (again, IMO), the
> >> ultimate question that is brought up when making "the perfect IAL" is
> >> "how can I make this language as easy as possible for the maximum
> >> number of people to learn?". Given that, there ought to be (at least
> >> in theory) a minimum of one "perfect" IAL, one that maximizes
> >> learnability for the maximum number of people (sorry for the util
> >> logic again); that said, there is the legitimate argument that such a
> >> language is impossible to create. After all, how on earth would one
> >> test the learnability of some aspect of language (i.e. phonology,
> >> morphology, syntax, etc.) in terms of an average across the world
> >> population? As far as I can see, the only absolute surefire way would
> >> be to do extensive tests on every individual on the planet, which
> >> would naturally be tantamount to impossible. However, to counteract
> >> that argument, one might point out that such extensive study is not
> >> necessary, and that each individual can be fairly characterized based
> >> on the specific language (or dialect of a language) that they speak.
> >> That is, it is safe to assume that most, if not all, German speakers
> >> will be familiar with more or less the same variations on the many
> >> aspects of language. Taking this to be so, how might one go about
> >> creating "the perfect IAL" then? Well, assuming learnability is eased
> >> with increased familiarity, one merely need only take the aspect in
> >> question (say, for simplicity's sake, phonology) and weight each
> >> possible variation on it (in this case, the varying phonemes) with a
> >> number representing the number of people who are "familiar" with that
> >> specific variation on the aspect as a result of the language they
> >> speak (i.e. that can pronounce a given phoneme, based on what language
> >> they speak and the phoneme inventory of that language), organize all
> >> the data, create some cutoff point (a point where a sound is foreign
> >> enough to a sufficient number of speakers that it would be detrimental
> >> to include in the IAL's inventory, most likely 50% of speakers or
> >> less), select all variations meeting and/or exceeding the cutoff
> >> point, and bingo: one has the perfect variation of that aspect. Of
> >> course, this is naturally easier said than done, even for something
> >> like phonology, but the principles still hold true, not to mention it
> >> is far more attainable than the previously mentioned exhaustive
> >> method. Once one has the "perfect variation" one need only join it
> >> with other "perfect variations" (this step will probably result on the
> >> alteration of some variations, mind you) and one then has the "perfect
> >> language", at least from a learnability standpoint, and all from
> >> seeking to maximize learnability for the maximum number of people
> >> (people meaning those presently living on earth and not speaking the
> >> IAL).
> >>
> >> Bringing the two expressed point together, one best goes about
> >> creating an IAL by trying to make it as similar as possible to the
> >> maximum number of languages, which in practice entails constructing it
> >> using the aspects held most in common by all natlangs (being sure to
> >> weight a given natlang's contributions based the numbers of speakers
> >> it has). Thus, the question as to whether or not an IAL should be more
> >> synthetic or analytic or whatever can and should be answered in terms
> >> of how many potential learners would find such a convention more or
> >> less hard to grasp than some other convention.
> >>
> >> So yeah. That's my rant for today (hopefully). If there's something I
> >> missed or clearly don't know, please tell me. I'm new at this.
> >>
> >> Q'asahrra!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <
> [log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hallo conlangers!
> >> >
> >> > On 19.10.2015 20:08, Jeffrey Brown wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello "temporary",
> >> >> I think you'll get better answers to these questions on the AUXLANG
> >> forum
> >> >> (better = from people who have been thinking about these same issues
> for
> >> >> years and years).
> >> >> Jeffrey
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Exactly.  Let me add something: As discussions of the design criteria
> for
> >> > IALs easily turn into heated debates which IAL proposal is best, we
> have
> >> a
> >> > long-standing tradition to immediately relegate them to AUXLANG -
> which
> >> was
> >> > split off CONLANG in the late 1990s precisely in order to get such
> topics
> >> > out of CONLANG.  Many people here have had enough of that and don't
> care
> >> > about artificial IALs.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> >> > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> >> > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sincerely,
> >>          William S. Wright
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>          William S. Wright
>

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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
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August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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