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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Principles for IALs

From:

William Wright <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:26:28 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (198 lines)

Sorry, was to "Temporary Conlanger".

Ah, I see. My bad.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Sid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Sorry, was to "Temporary Conlanger".
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:05 AM, William Wright <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> All of these are obvious, yes. But they're also wrong.
>>
>> Agreement is redundancy, and usable languages need it. You don't realize
>> this, but agreement can go beyond gender and inflection -- for what reason
>> do we say "powerful computer" and "strong tea" but not "strong computer"
>> and "powerful tea"? Isolating languages rely on this form of redundancy.
>>
>> You think inflection is complicated, but syntax is not? That's because you
>> come from a Greco-Latinate tradition where syntax is ignored.
>>
>> You really mean "phonemic".
>>
>> How will you decide what words are gonna be included? You disdain a "large
>> vocabulary", after all. What meanings are "basic" and "universal"?
>>
>> You don't understand lexical distinctions.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I hate to make assumptions, but was this to me?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Sid <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> > All of these are obvious, yes. But they're also wrong.
>> >
>> > Agreement is redundancy, and usable languages need it. You don't realize
>> > this, but agreement can go beyond gender and inflection -- for what
>> reason
>> > do we say "powerful computer" and "strong tea" but not "strong computer"
>> > and "powerful tea"? Isolating languages rely on this form of redundancy.
>> >
>> > You think inflection is complicated, but syntax is not? That's because
>> you
>> > come from a Greco-Latinate tradition where syntax is ignored.
>> >
>> > You really mean "phonemic".
>> >
>> > How will you decide what words are gonna be included? You disdain a
>> "large
>> > vocabulary", after all. What meanings are "basic" and "universal"?
>> >
>> > You don't understand lexical distinctions.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 3:00 AM, William Wright <
>> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I don't mean to kick old coals, but I might be inclined to disagree
>> >> with you about some of your assertions, TC. Who's to say, for example,
>> >> that inflections make things complicated? After all, someone speaking
>> >> a more synthetic language (i.e. Spanish, Hindi, Bengali, Arabic,
>> >> Russian, some of the most widely spoken languages on the planet)
>> >> wouldn't find them all that difficult to learn (depending on what
>> >> kinds of inflections we're talking about, granted). Furthermore,
>> >> inflection systems can be created without much difficulty in such a
>> >> way as to permit the easy assimilation of loanwords. The same goes for
>> >> tenses (as for inflections); the fact that some languages rely heavily
>> >> on the use of tense means that speakers of those languages would be at
>> >> a disadvantage when learning the IAL in question. As a final note,
>> >> forgoing the use of synthesis *and* that of lexical distinctions
>> >> between nouns, verbs, and adjectives would force learners to remember
>> >> complicated rules for word order, which ultimately puts them in the
>> >> same position that one tries to avoid by getting rid of *inflections*
>> >> in the first place; that is, the learners have to remember complicated
>> >> rules and learners whose native language does not favor the morphology
>> >> of the IAL are at a disadvantage.
>> >>
>> >> I suppose (IMO) at the end of the day it comes down to learnability. I
>> >> mean, regularity and non-equivocation and phonetic scripts are all
>> >> well and good, but none of them possesses a significant benefit (as
>> >> far as I can see) beyond easing learnability; after all, almost every
>> >> natlang gets along fairly without at least one of them, if not all
>> >> three. Thus, the potential future native speakers of an IAL are not
>> >> really what one has to worry about: they will get along just as fine
>> >> as the rest of us do. The problem (or at the very least the *first*
>> >> problem) is making learning the language easy for "non-native"
>> >> speakers (i.e. everyone, at least at first). Thus (again, IMO), the
>> >> ultimate question that is brought up when making "the perfect IAL" is
>> >> "how can I make this language as easy as possible for the maximum
>> >> number of people to learn?". Given that, there ought to be (at least
>> >> in theory) a minimum of one "perfect" IAL, one that maximizes
>> >> learnability for the maximum number of people (sorry for the util
>> >> logic again); that said, there is the legitimate argument that such a
>> >> language is impossible to create. After all, how on earth would one
>> >> test the learnability of some aspect of language (i.e. phonology,
>> >> morphology, syntax, etc.) in terms of an average across the world
>> >> population? As far as I can see, the only absolute surefire way would
>> >> be to do extensive tests on every individual on the planet, which
>> >> would naturally be tantamount to impossible. However, to counteract
>> >> that argument, one might point out that such extensive study is not
>> >> necessary, and that each individual can be fairly characterized based
>> >> on the specific language (or dialect of a language) that they speak.
>> >> That is, it is safe to assume that most, if not all, German speakers
>> >> will be familiar with more or less the same variations on the many
>> >> aspects of language. Taking this to be so, how might one go about
>> >> creating "the perfect IAL" then? Well, assuming learnability is eased
>> >> with increased familiarity, one merely need only take the aspect in
>> >> question (say, for simplicity's sake, phonology) and weight each
>> >> possible variation on it (in this case, the varying phonemes) with a
>> >> number representing the number of people who are "familiar" with that
>> >> specific variation on the aspect as a result of the language they
>> >> speak (i.e. that can pronounce a given phoneme, based on what language
>> >> they speak and the phoneme inventory of that language), organize all
>> >> the data, create some cutoff point (a point where a sound is foreign
>> >> enough to a sufficient number of speakers that it would be detrimental
>> >> to include in the IAL's inventory, most likely 50% of speakers or
>> >> less), select all variations meeting and/or exceeding the cutoff
>> >> point, and bingo: one has the perfect variation of that aspect. Of
>> >> course, this is naturally easier said than done, even for something
>> >> like phonology, but the principles still hold true, not to mention it
>> >> is far more attainable than the previously mentioned exhaustive
>> >> method. Once one has the "perfect variation" one need only join it
>> >> with other "perfect variations" (this step will probably result on the
>> >> alteration of some variations, mind you) and one then has the "perfect
>> >> language", at least from a learnability standpoint, and all from
>> >> seeking to maximize learnability for the maximum number of people
>> >> (people meaning those presently living on earth and not speaking the
>> >> IAL).
>> >>
>> >> Bringing the two expressed point together, one best goes about
>> >> creating an IAL by trying to make it as similar as possible to the
>> >> maximum number of languages, which in practice entails constructing it
>> >> using the aspects held most in common by all natlangs (being sure to
>> >> weight a given natlang's contributions based the numbers of speakers
>> >> it has). Thus, the question as to whether or not an IAL should be more
>> >> synthetic or analytic or whatever can and should be answered in terms
>> >> of how many potential learners would find such a convention more or
>> >> less hard to grasp than some other convention.
>> >>
>> >> So yeah. That's my rant for today (hopefully). If there's something I
>> >> missed or clearly don't know, please tell me. I'm new at this.
>> >>
>> >> Q'asahrra!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hallo conlangers!
>> >> >
>> >> > On 19.10.2015 20:08, Jeffrey Brown wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hello "temporary",
>> >> >> I think you'll get better answers to these questions on the AUXLANG
>> >> forum
>> >> >> (better = from people who have been thinking about these same issues
>> for
>> >> >> years and years).
>> >> >> Jeffrey
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Exactly.  Let me add something: As discussions of the design criteria
>> for
>> >> > IALs easily turn into heated debates which IAL proposal is best, we
>> have
>> >> a
>> >> > long-standing tradition to immediately relegate them to AUXLANG -
>> which
>> >> was
>> >> > split off CONLANG in the late 1990s precisely in order to get such
>> topics
>> >> > out of CONLANG.  Many people here have had enough of that and don't
>> care
>> >> > about artificial IALs.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>> >> > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>> >> > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >>          William S. Wright
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>          William S. Wright
>>



-- 
Sincerely,
         William S. Wright

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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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