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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Lojban is not based on predicate logic (a recent paper)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:43:07 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

On 21/10/2015 20:11, And Rosta wrote:
> On 21 Oct 2015 14:15, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote:
>>
>> 2015-10-19 0:40 GMT+03:00 And Rosta
>>
>>> I think you've really proved my point, Gleki: you're
>>>  probably the world's only human being who can
>>> interpret that passage from John Clifford as meaning
>>> that there is no meaningful sense in which Lojban is
>>> based on predicate logic.
>>>
>>
>> okay one more quotation from the reference grammar
>> itself:
>>
>> "There are many more aspects of logic that I neither
>> fully understand nor feel competent to explain, neither
>> in abstract nor in their Lojban realization. Lojban was
>> designed to be a language that makes predicate logic
>> speakable,

... which in my understanding of English (which, I admit,
I've been speaking for only about 74 years) this means the
language is _based_ on predicate logic!  The design is the
basis is it not?

>> and achieving that goal completely will need to wait
>> for someone who understands both logic and Lojban
>> better than I do.

Does Gleki not understand the difference between base and a
goal - the start and the finish that one is aiming for, the
alpha and the omega?  It may well not have (yet) achieved
the goal of making predicate logic _completely_ speakable -
that's the goal.  But by saying "completely" does not the
writer imply that it has at least been _partially_ completed?

In Chapter 1 of the Lojban Reference Grammar we we are told
quite unambiguously:
"Lojban grammar is based on the principles of predicate logic."
See:
http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter1.html

Cannot we all just accept what the Lojban Reference Grammar
so clearly and unambiguously states and stop this pointless
argument?

>> I can only hope to have pointed out the areas that are
>> well-understood (and by implication, those that are
>> not)."
>>
>> If Lojban were based on predicate logic making tha
>> tlogic speakble would be trivial.

I'm lost - I do not follow the reasoning here.

[snip]
>
> We don't disagree about Lojban and its relation to logic.
> I intervened in the thread only because you were
> interpreting the meaning of "based on" in a way that was
>  both eccentrically narrow and, without your
> interlocutors necessarily realizing it, different from
> their more everyday and latitudinous interpretation of
> the term.

Certainly different from the way I understand the word.  The
_basis_ is what one starts from.

> Your subsequent messages have described the ways Lojban
> both is and isn't based on PL, and I expect that in
> consequence all your readers now have a fairly clear
> understanding of the relationship between Lojban and
> logic.

Yes, I rather fancy we have      :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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