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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: What are loglangs? (Was:: Purpose of formal logic?)

From:

Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:18:23 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (168 lines)

2015-10-15 18:45 GMT+03:00 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>:

> On 15/10/2015 10:03, R A Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> Um - I must return to my Glossopoeia page and redefine
>> 'loglang', I think.  but it will have to wait as I am
>> actually in the process of updating stuff on Britainese
>> ;)
>>
>>
> I think it is not only Britainese holding me up on this, but
> also some other points that need rethinking.
>
> On my 'Glossopoeia & Glossopoeic Languages' page, I wrote:
> {quote}
> ... Thus we find in the early Conlang period loglang and
> loglan used interchangeably to mean "engelang." This is all
> very unsatisfactory.  In this section I used Loglan to mean
> JCB's language as defined by The Loglan Institute, and
> Lojban to mean the language, originally derived from JCB's
> early Loglan, and developed by the Logical Language Group.
>
> The term 'loglang' is now properly confined to those
> languages which are based on formal logic - in practice
> predicate logic. The term 'loglan' is sometimes used to mean
> any conlang ultimately descended from JCB's original
> language. Thus Voksigid (1991-1992) may be termed a loglan,
> but many feel it has departed too far from formal logic to
> be termed a loglang.
> {unquote}
>
> I no longer feel that using loglan as a generic term for any
> language that is ultimately descended from JCB's original
> Loglan helpful.  I think the only unambiguous generic
> noun is _loglang_.  Therefore, the above will be changed
> and, as I wrote in my previous email, my definition of
> 'loglang' itself will be changed.
>
> Let us accept for the sake of argument what And wrote, namely:
> "Natural languages encode [predicate--argument structure]s
> of limited complexity and do it ambiguously."
> and:
> "A loglang ... is a language that unambiguously encodes
> predicate--argument structure of unlimited complexity."
>

Any examples of this ambiguity for one group and unambiguity for the other?


>
> If we accept this, what is your opinion of the longlangitude
> of 'Plan B' and of Voksigid?
>

Protero's Plan B and Voksigid are simply underformalized.
Where is the full description and the dictionary of Voksigid?
The page http://viewsoflanguage.host56.com/voksigid/ says nothing.


> [PLAN B]
> The simplest predicate-argument structure is arguably pa,
> i.e. a unary predicate (I guess it could be argued the
> simplest is a nullary predicate - but it's difficult to see
> how a language with the grammar S-> pS{<nil> would work; but
> I don't want to argue that here).
>
> The grammar of Jeff Prothero's Plan B could be considered as
> S -> paS|<nil>, since each sentence consists of a string of
> semantic units followed by a morpheme indicating its
> precedence in a parse tree.  Thus, if we for the sake
> of argument, use English for the semantic unit (predicate)
> and a numeral indicating tree precedence (argument) then we
> may render the specimen sentences thus:
>
> I like you -> me(0) like(1) you(0)
>
> She likes me -> her(0) like(1) me(0)
>
> I drive the car -> me(0) drive(1) the(1) car(0)
>
> I drive her car -> me(0) drive(1) her(1) car(0)
>
> I can drive a car -> me(0) can(1) drive(1) a(1) car(0).
>
> I like her driving my car -> me(0) like(2) her(0) drive(1)
> me(1) car(0).
>
> I will drive my car to  you -> me(0) will(1) drive(1) me(1)
> car(0) to(1) you(0)
>
> (These are not the precedence ratings I would give for the
> penultimate and antepenultimate sentences - but never mind.)
>


I think a lot of conlangs if not most presented on this list over the last
years have this level of formalization.


> Now I dismissed the language as an loglang because it did
> not appear to me to be based on any formal logic.  But was I
> right to do so?  Does the language comply with And's definition?
>
> [VOKSIGID]
> For a description of the unfinished language, see:
> http://viewsoflanguage.host56.com/voksigid/
>
> AIUI modern predicate grammar sees predicates as relations
> or functions over arguments.  Predicates are placed on the
> left outside of brackets, whereas the predicate's arguments
> are placed inside the brackets; and the number and position
> of the arguments is determined by the valency of the predicate.
>
> Now, it would seem (Correct me if I'm mistaken) that in
> Loglan and Lojban, if the 'correct' order of arguments
> is followed no prefixed/preposited particle is used before
> any of the arguments. However, the arguments may be put in a
> different order if such a particle is used.
>

Mostly, yes.


>
> But Voksigid seems to me to have gone a stage further.
> There is no predetermined order for arguments


Same for Loglan.

; their
> relation to the predicate must be marked by prepositions.
> Indeed, I see no difference in Voksigid between a
> predicate's arguments and any adjuncts it may be given.
>
> How is it, indeed, not a verb first language with the
> relationship of arguments being marked by prepositions, i.e.
> a sort of "reverse Japanese."
>
> Can it be classified as a loglang?


It's N-paradigm:
http://loglan.org/Paradigms/paradigm_n.html
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Why_positional_case_system

Metaphorical case system or numbered cases, FrameNet or PropBank, does it
matter for a language to be formalized?

Of course, you decide what the term "loglang" means for you.
But indeed it's better to formalize the term since even Wikipedia is
affected.


>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>

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