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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 3

CONLANG October 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Principles for IALs

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:03:42 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 20.10.2015 10:00, R A Brown wrote:

> On 19/10/2015 23:19, And Rosta wrote:
>> On 19 Oct 2015 21:50, "Jörg Rhiemeier" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19.10.2015 21:59, And Rosta wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMO an IAL would be nice to have, but only if it's a
>>>> really really good loglang, better than any we
>>>> currently have. So I wouldn't agree with any of your
>>>>  IAL principles, tho I recognize that you articulate
>>>> a mainstream and traditional view.
>>>
>>>
>>> I disagree.
>
> As so I.
>
>> Which bit do you disagree with? IIRC you are not an IAL
>> proponent, because you recognize that English already
>> serves that function.

I disagree with the notion that the IAL ought to be a loglang.

It is not that I reject the idea of an artificial IAL *per se*, and 
indeed, most of the "classic" IALs from Esperanto to IALA Interlingua 
are IMHO quite well-designed, with the differences being too minor to be 
worth the fuss that is often made of them.  But I am put off by the 
quibbling and proselytizing that is common in auxlanger circles.  Also, 
I see that English is used by at least 1000 times as many people as 
Esperanto, so the structural advantages the latter may have over the 
former are obviously not decisive.

> I recognize that English currently serves as s global
> auxiliary.  I have observed on many occasions that
> throughout human history, natlangs (often in a modified,
> internationalized form, e.g. Greek Koine, Medieval Latin)
> have served as regional IALs.  it seems humans have a
> preference for natlangs even with all the "drawbacks" of one
> like English.

Yes - because they have a native speaker base to start with.  Any 
artificial IAL, in contrast, starts from zero.

Of course, one reason why the 17th-century "philosophical" languages 
failed, was that they weren't appropriate to the problem.  They were too 
cumbersome for actual use.  And of course, the friction between the 
various proposals, just as today.  Volapük also failed because it was 
poorly designed, and when Esperanto came up, most Volapükists defected 
with flags flying.  But while Esperanto and similar schemes made a 
rather good job at designing a language that would work reasonably well, 
none got near being used as the global lingua franca.

>> The loglang IAL doesn't compete with English (or
>> Esperanto).
>
> Oh, but it will compete with Esperanto & other IAL conlangs
> and even with other loglangs.  If you do not realize that
> then I must assume you are unfamiliar with the flame wars
> that used to bedevil the Auxlang list.
>
> Whether Jörg's is not a proponent of artificial IALs simply
> because English is a de_facto IAL, I don't know.

It is at least *one* of the reasons why I am not a proponent of 
artificial IALs.  I do appreciate the idea that an artificial IAL, if 
designed well, could, *in theory*, be a better solution of the world 
language problem than English or any other natlang, but *in practice*, 
you get the problem of making everybody learn a language with no native 
speakers and no culture attached to it (though the Esperanto community, 
and some others as well, has developed a kind of subculture of its own - 
but these "IAL cultures" are only possible because the speaker 
communities are small enough to develop a strong community sense, which 
would quickly evaporate if the language in question was to be put to 
actual usage as the worldwide lingua franca!), which relativizes the 
structural advantages of an artificial IAL.  That the proponents of an 
artificial IAL can't agree on one, but are splintered in at least as 
many factions as there are IAL proposals, doesn't help, either.

> In my
> case, I am not as a result of my once involvement with them:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Briefscript/IAL.html
>
> See also:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20120716230133/http://www.rickharrison.com/language/farewell.html 
>
>
> Which views I am in agreement with.

So am I.  I feel no desire any longer to either support any artificial 
IAL (because it seems pointless to me) or design my own (because there 
are too many around already).  I prefer doing artlangs, where I can do 
more interesting things.

>> And you presumably understand that the loglang has the
>> advantage of encoding propositional thought without
>> ambiguity and without limit to the thought's complexity,
>> and presumably can appreciate that that has considerable
>> practical value.
>
> That's why we have modern formal logic, when such things are
> required.

But is it required in everyday conversation?  I don't think so; it seems 
to me to be what we call in German _mit Kanonen auf Spatzen schießen_ 
'to fire cannon at sparrows', i. e. to apply a big apparatus to a 
problem to which it is inappropriately large and cumbersome.

> Interestingly, the global IAL has been part of Loglan;
> movement from the start.  JCB had written:
> "... Loglan would probably be seen as ideal in the role of
> that international auxiliary, for example: the first
> language to be taught to the world's school children, the
> one slated to become everybody's second language... our
> engineered new second-language would ... perhaps also [be] a
> culture-spanning bridge to a more tolerant and peaceful world."
>
> Interesting that the idea of an IAL bringing about world
> peace, claims made by Ro, Volapük, Esperanto and all the
> hundreds of other IALs is again iterated by the inventor of
> the first loglang.
>
> I recall that a world IAL used to be listed as among the
> possible uses of Lojban; but I notice that no longer appears
> on the new Lojban website:
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban
>
> But it does seem that the dream of an artificial IAL is that
> of some (many?) loglangers.
>
> But IMHO the advocacy of a loglang or any other conlang as
> an IAL does not belong here.  I strongly suggest that this
> thread is moved to Auxlang where it belongs.

Amen.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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