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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  October 2015, Week 4

CONLANG October 2015, Week 4

Subject:

Good conlang samples (was: Theory: THEORY Conlanging advice)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:48:11 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 25.10.2015 02:16, Padraic Brown wrote:

> Ray Brown wrote:
>
>> On 22/10/2015 13:36, Decremental Bug wrote:
>>> Padraic, this was one of the most inspiring passages about conlanging I ever read :) Thanks.
>> Quite inspiring - and nice to have emails about an artlang for a change    :)
>
> Thank you! As you well know -- and as we can all see from your delightful webpage! -- when one has been doing something of this sort, an artistic pursuit, one tends to think about the activity itself. Not just in terms of "how do I do x, y and z"; but "what is it I am doing" and "why am I doing this?"

Right.  Why am I doing Old Albic?  What is it what I am doing with it?  
Well, it is several things at once.  The main motivation, of course, is 
that it is the language of a fictional culture by which means I try to 
express my views on the human condition.  At the same time, I am 
exploring the lost world of pre-IE European languages (Old Albic is 
meant to be one of them) and the prehistory of Proto-Indo-European (Old 
Albic is meant to be related to it, and to preserve some of the "sunken 
traits" of an ancestor of PIE).  And lastly, I wish to create a 
beautiful language ;)

On the other hand, I have no aspirations to create a useful IAL, or a 
language that implements formal logic, or anything like that.  At least 
not with Old Albic.

>>> Many folks recommend against beginning with poetry or other hard kinds of language.
>> I know - but really an artlang deserves something better than: "John like the dog."  "Jane likes the dog."  "John and Jane like the dog"
>> ad_nauseam (quite literally).
> This is true. Although of course one could deliberately chóose to render _Dick and Jane_ into the conlang, for preference within its cultural context, and one would necessarily end up with just such sentences. But at least there would be an artistic purpose behind it! (And if I recall right, it was a bit of a thing a few years back to do just that, translate such books into conlang. I had planned, years ago to do _Y Wyddor_, a very pretty little Welsh abcedarium, into Brithenig & Kerno, but that project didn't get too far. Perhaps I'll wait for Brittanese to come out and make all three!)
>
> I tend to favour useful or interesting or culturally pertinent sentences, even when just starting a project.

Yes!  My favourite conlang sample is that which Mark Rosenfelder gave of 
Xurnese.  I can't find it now because zompist.com is offline, but it 
translates as: "My niece is dating a sculptor.  He hopes to govern a 
province some day."  This sounds like an utter non-sequitur - why should 
a sculptor be especially qualified for a higher adminstration position? 
- but Xurno is governed by an art academy, and this means that a 
sculptor can indeed become a province governor.  Hence, the example 
succinctly tells us something about one of the most important traits of 
Xurnese culture!

So far, my grammar of Old Albic is lacking of example sentences, because 
I do not wish to give such trivial sentences as "The boy gave the ball 
to the girl"; rather, I'd like to use sentences from original texts such 
as the creation myth, or other sentences that shine a light on Old Albic 
culture, like the Xurnese example I mentioned above.  But for that, I 
need to write more original texts, and coin a number of words.

The signature I use here cites the first sentence of an (unfinished) 
prose version of the Old Albic creation myth ('In the beginning is the 
One, and the One is in all and all is in the One'); on the ZBB, I have 
an Old Albic translation of Schiller's "Der Mensch ist nur dort wahrer 
Mensch, wo er spielt" ('Man is only true man where he plays') in my 
signature, which, while not originally Old Albic, reflects my vantage 
point and that of the Elbi quite well.

> Caramansian, a western relative of Talarian, for example has only one sentence so far: clawthî ‘e yizreelatte: Adonaryo anzo deyuo: hiscue oyno -- Hear o Israel! the Lord is our God, He is one! (Not entirely coincidental, it must be admitted, the country being a Jewish kingdom, but I think as an example sentence it beats some of the alternatives!)
>
> Temberean, another scantily clad conlang from the West, has this for a first sentence. ar skente skere swirkwo tlikwon; a cutting and witty jibe (if you will kindly excuse my horrible pun), meaning "like a sharp knife in soft flesh" and is said when a person relishes an often nefarious or questionably moral activity.
>
> Nope. No "Jane likes dog" here!

Yes, those are nice examples.

>>> I recommend the contrary: start with poetry! Write a recipe or a prayer or a snatch of song or a chapter of your people's foundational myth.
>> Yep - tho the very earliest writing does seem to have come about for the mundane reason of keeping, as soon as people realize writing is a great
>> tool and begin to write _literature_ more often than not, it seems to to me, it is verse/poetry that precedes prose.  Think of the Epic of Gilgamesh,
>> the Homeric Epics of the Greeks, the Vedic hymns etc.
> True that. I don't think any but a very peculiar conlanger would want to devise a conlang and for his first text make it a monthly expense ledger! I think most of us aspire to use our conlangs in more communicative ways, and thus tend to start out with sentences that are more narrative in nature. Starting with poetry & literature is just so much more fun!

But very much so!  Indeed, I haven't yet seen a ledger in an artlang; 
most artlangers, I think, attain to write literature and poetry in their 
languages, and I am certainly not an exception.

>> Your own people's foundation in myth in verse - now that's a thought!
> In prose, I've worked on a couple, and in "translation" several. In verse, none that I can recall!

I'd like to be able to produce good verse in Old Albic, but for that, 
I'd have to improve my proficiency with the language.  I am simply not 
there yet.

>> I so often wish Tolkien's Silmarillion had been a verse epic in Quenya, instead of the (disappointing to me) posthumous publication by Christopher
>> Tolkien  {sigh}.
> Disappointing in what way? If I recall right, he (CJRT) set himself up as custodian and setter-in-order of whatever his father had already written, not a creator within his father's world. Isn't the published S text basically JRRT's work as combed through and edited in scholarly fashion, and not CJRT's own original writing?

Yep.  It is JRRT's work edited in scholarly fashion by CJRT.  What Ray 
apparently finds disappointing is that it is in prose; but some early 
verse versions exist (although in English, not in Quenya or Sindarin) 
and have been published posthumously by CJRT in the volume _The Lays of 
Beleriand_ (History of Middle-earth vol. 3).  Yet, a verse rendition of 
the Silmarillion in Quenya or Sindarin would be something!

> Naturally, I think we share the wish that such things had been properly done up by JRRT himself.

Sure.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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