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CONLANG  October 2015, Week 4

CONLANG October 2015, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Lojban is not based on predicate logic (a recent paper)

From:

Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:41:27 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (141 lines)

2015-10-22 9:36 GMT+03:00 Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>:

> Lojban is an engelang. It has explicit design goals, and expressing
> predicate logic is the first of them. Whether or not it meets its design
> goals is another matter.
>
> English is a natlang. It has no design goals.
>

Agreed in both (nice that the term "loglang" wasn't used).


> Pete Bleackley
> The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> Emily Semantic Recommendation - https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 7:25 am
> Subject: Re: Lojban is not based on predicate logic (a recent paper)
>
> 2015-10-21 22:43 GMT+03:00 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > On 21/10/2015 20:11, And Rosta wrote:
> >
> >> On 21 Oct 2015 14:15, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 2015-10-19 0:40 GMT+03:00 And Rosta
> >>>
> >>> I think you've really proved my point, Gleki: you're
> >>>>  probably the world's only human being who can
> >>>> interpret that passage from John Clifford as meaning
> >>>> that there is no meaningful sense in which Lojban is
> >>>> based on predicate logic.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> okay one more quotation from the reference grammar
> >>> itself:
> >>>
> >>> "There are many more aspects of logic that I neither
> >>> fully understand nor feel competent to explain, neither
> >>> in abstract nor in their Lojban realization. Lojban was
> >>> designed to be a language that makes predicate logic
> >>> speakable,
> >>>
> >>
> > ... which in my understanding of English (which, I admit,
> > I've been speaking for only about 74 years) this means the
> > language is _based_ on predicate logic!  The design is the
> > basis is it not?
> >
> > and achieving that goal completely will need to wait
> >>> for someone who understands both logic and Lojban
> >>> better than I do.
> >>>
> >>
> > Does Gleki not understand the difference between base and a
> > goal - the start and the finish that one is aiming for, the
> > alpha and the omega?  It may well not have (yet) achieved
> > the goal of making predicate logic _completely_ speakable -
> > that's the goal.  But by saying "completely" does not the
> > writer imply that it has at least been _partially_ completed?
> >
> > In Chapter 1 of the Lojban Reference Grammar we we are told
> > quite unambiguously:
> > "Lojban grammar is based on the principles of predicate logic."
> > See:
> > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter1.html
> >
> > Cannot we all just accept what the Lojban Reference Grammar
> > so clearly and unambiguously states and stop this pointless
> > argument?
>
>
> Consider I write a new grammar of English stating "It is based on predicate
> logic".
> Will you believe me?
>
> Why should we believe some original research and call Lojban "based on
> predicate logic" because the authors just want to?
>
> I can only agree that the reference grammar of Lojban asserts something but
> is it a linguistic fact?
> And even if it's just a historical fact (loglang by history, not by fact)
> then this history has to be described (which Loglan1 textbook might do to
> some extent).
>
>
>
> >
> > I can only hope to have pointed out the areas that are
> >>> well-understood (and by implication, those that are
> >>> not)."
> >>>
> >>> If Lojban were based on predicate logic making tha
> >>> tlogic speakble would be trivial.
> >>>
> >>
> > I'm lost - I do not follow the reasoning here.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>
> >> We don't disagree about Lojban and its relation to logic.
> >> I intervened in the thread only because you were
> >> interpreting the meaning of "based on" in a way that was
> >>  both eccentrically narrow and, without your
> >> interlocutors necessarily realizing it, different from
> >> their more everyday and latitudinous interpretation of
> >> the term.
> >>
> >
> > Certainly different from the way I understand the word.  The
> > _basis_ is what one starts from.
> >
> > Your subsequent messages have described the ways Lojban
> >> both is and isn't based on PL, and I expect that in
> >> consequence all your readers now have a fairly clear
> >> understanding of the relationship between Lojban and
> >> logic.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, I rather fancy we have      :)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ray
> > ==================================
> > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> > ==================================
> > "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
> > wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> > [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> > "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> > will always interfere with language".
> >
>

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