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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 2

CONLANG November 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: A three-way definiteness distinction

From:

stewart fraser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:48:20 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (74 lines)

I am glad you like the system that I proposed.


Actually I was not really serious about creating a conlang with this 24-way
distinction (well for one thing it would be far too kitchen-sink-ish) :
rather I was thinking that ... say you came across a natlang with a 3-way
distinction ... maybe my proposed 24-way framework might be of use* to
analyse what is actually going on in the natlang.


Probably the main point of my post was to try and set the terminology
straight.


By the way, I would condider "definite" = "referential" = "specific". I
choose to use "specific" for no major reason.


I agree with all the points you make. The logophoric idea is very neat.


* The 9 "situations" as Haspelmath proposed in his book "Indefinite
Pronouns" would be another useful framework to use in analysing this 3-way
natlang. Actually "situation" 1 and "situation" 2, which he calls "specific
known" and "specific unknown" correspond to what I call 1st person specific
/ 2nd person non-specific and 1st person non-specific / 2nd person
non-specific .

On 10 November 2015 at 22:53, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:41:32 +0000, stewart fraser <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >It would be possible to make a really comprehensive set of particles in a
> >conlang to cover all possibilities.
> >
> >You could give 1st person the value of specific or non-specific. (2
> choices)
> >
> >You could give 2nd person the value specific, non-specific or unknown. (3
> >choices)
> >
> >You could give 3nd person the value "no 3rd person involved", specific,
> >non-specific or unknown. (4 choices)
> >
> >So you could make up a conlang with 24 particles ( i.e. 2 x 3 x 4 ) to
> >cover all possibilities.
>
> This is a nice system, in both the old and new senses of "nice" (but not
> the obsolete sense!).  It's the sort of thing I might even quasi-steal for
> a conlang one day, though I'd probably make some alterations.  For one, the
> more grammaticalised a system is, the less likely it is to have a
> noncommittal option.  Your "unknown" values are not quite noncommittal
> options but I suspect the distinction you actually describe between 'I know
> you don't know which' and 'I don't know whether you know which' would be
> actually solidly makable in few cases, so it'd have more or less the same
> effect.  For two, instead of having third person orthogonal to first and
> second, it could be fun and less overbuilt to have it come in through the
> back door of logophor.  That is, there'd be four articles contrasting in
> known vs. unknown to speaker and known vs. unknown to hearer; but in
> contexts where a third person's viewpoint is being taken the "speaker"
> system would actually be used to mark said third person's perspective (and
> this change could come with a morphological marking, or no).  If one really
> wanted to indicate knownness to all three parties one could use a double
> article, maybe along the lines of '[unknown-to-s-unknown-to-h me.DAT]
> known-to-s-unknown-to-h N' where the inner tighter-bound article shows the
> logophoric interpretation and the dative pronoun overcomes this
> interpretation for the outer one.  For three, I wonder if the
> unknown-to-speaker-known-to-hearer article should be identical to a
> question word with the force of 'which'.
>
> Alex
>

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