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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 2

CONLANG November 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: A three-way definiteness distinction

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 8 Nov 2015 22:19:50 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

FWIW, I think of the strong/mixed/weak declension of German adjectives as
implying something of a definiteness spectrum in noun phrases.  Nouns with
no article are the least definite and therefore require the strong
declension to buoy them up; nouns with an indefinite article or possessive
are of intermediate definiteness and take the mixed declension; and nouns
with a definite article are the most definite and therefore need only the
weak declension.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> On 8 November 2015 at 14:49, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >  2015-11-08 19:07 GMT-02:00 Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> >> [...]
> >> So far, I have the articles <txe> and <ta> for singular definite and
> >> singular indefinite, respectively. Already, these work a little bit
> >> different from "the" and "a" in English, because, inspired by Salish,
> >> this language cannot encode presupposition. Thus <txe> does not
> >> indicate "a specific thing that I expect to be commonly understood",
> >> but rather "a specific thing that I have in mind, regardless of
> >> whether or not you know about it".
> >>
> >
> > It sounds like English "indefinite this".
>
> Kinda, yeah. Maybe that's how I should do all my translations now- not
> "a man hit a coyote" vs. "the man hit a coyote", but "a man hit a
> coyote" vs. "so this guy hits a coyote..."
>
> I don't think I can both clearly and accurately articulate just how
> that led to my next bit of inspiration without spending another five
> pages tracing out my jumbled train of thought, but somehow that led me
> to another possible usage of <kwe>- titles!
>
> There are all kinds of English titles which use the definite article
> (which is slightly odd, since in most cases the target audience does
> not, in fact, already know which one you are talking about before they
> read the book); use of <kwe> would properly signal that this is a
> thing that you are about to be told about. The translation of "The
> Martian", for example, might thus come out as "kwe Wondbalessa-la"-
> "Mars" gets phonologically adapted as <nBales>, then we add an
> applicative prefix <wot> ("from") which I just barely invented for
> this very purpose, which when stuck on the front of <nBales> results
> in some pretty hairy morphophonological adjustments to make
> <wondbales>, which then gets the inverse voice suffix <-sa>, to
> indicate that we're talking about the guy from Mars, and not Mars
> which somebody incidentally is from. (I could also have used the
> passive suffix <-eskwe>, but the inverse seems more appropriate in
> that it signals that Mars itself still has high discourse relevance;
> and I could have picked a different applicative indicating location
> rather than source- "this guy on Mars" rather than "this guy from
> Mars", but "Martian" typically has the latter meaning and switching it
> would lose some of the impact of the English original).
>
> Incidentally, my specific inspiration for <kwe> was the Russian "то
> ... , что" / "тот .. , кто" construction (as in "те люди, кто здесь" ~
> "the/those people who are here"). We can do a similar thing in
> English, using "the" to introduce new entities (which would normally
> be indefinite) that we are about to define with a relative clause or
> something, but the usage of "то" in Russian is *far* more restricted
> than the usage of "the"/"this" in English, to the point that this
> specific construction makes up the vast majority of my exposure to it.
> From there, it's a pretty short jump to "what if we had an article
> that was *specifically* for that, as it's basc primary meaning?"
>
> -l.
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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