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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: 'A holistic approach to the fine art of grammar writing'

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:23:44 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (200 lines)

On 18 November 2015 at 02:18, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I think there are two sides to this issue.
>
> Let me give an example:
> The first European linguists to seriously study Arabic were German, and
> they described the grammar using grammatical terms used for the European
> languages. Most university classes in Arabic follow their path.
> Arabic grammarians (from about the 13th century), of course, did not
> describe their own language in those terms, nor in those categories. One of
> the main areas of difference is the case of nouns appearing as objects.
> Usually these are in the accusative case, but there are many exceptions.
> The Germans wrote about predicate nominatives and inchoatives to describe
> this..
> The Arabic grammarians described this completely differently. They had a
> category of verbs called, in literal translation:  "'was' and her sisters",
> that all pertain to states of being or becoming (e.g "to continue", "to
> remain") and these take different cases, in some constructions, than
> "ordinary" verbs.
> (Both methods give the same answers, as to what the proper case to use is.)
>
> Now, some people have said that it is best to describe a language in in its
> own terms. And that's one side of the coin.
>
> But, from a pedagogical perspective, it would have been much harder to
> learn Arabic grammar if I had had to learn a completely different way of
> talking about grammatical categories. And, believe me, Arabic grammar is
> hard enough already. So, if a conlanger wants other conlangers to be able
> to easily understand the grammar, it may be best to use Eurocentric
> grammatical terms; rather than describe it using the terms that the
> conculture's grammarians have come up with.
>
> So, it depends... what's your goal?
>
>
Have you actually *read* the article? Because what you're saying in your
last paragraph is *exactly* what the author is advocating for: to use the
*traditional* linguistic terms to describe analogous phenomena and
structures in different languages. When he advocates that each language
should be described "on its own terms", he is not talking about making the
labels themselves language-dependent (in fact, he has an entire page of the
manifesto ranting exactly *against* that), he is just saying that the
*meanings* of the labels are necessarily language-dependent, because no two
languages, even very closely related ones, ever share exactly the same
semantics even for similar structures.

What the author is advocating is to not treat linguistic terms like
metalinguistic entities that have a kind of Platonic existence or exist
independently in the brain. He is saying that a question like "how does
this language express the perfect?" is actually a malformed question,
because it presupposes that the "perfect" is some kind of universal
semantic entity that exists independently of any language. And it doesn't
(and neither does tense, aspect, mood, nominative, or whatever other
linguistic terms you can think of. They can exist *within a language*, and
they can be analogous *across languages*, but they are not
language-independent entities). And believing so actually causes one to
analyse linguistic phenomena in different languages incorrectly, because
one is prejudiced in thinking that some categories of meaning *must* exist
in the language being described.

So, what is the solution? The solution is not to throw away the terminology
and create a new one per language. It's to keep using that terminology,
*while redefining it according to the realities of the language being
described*. So by all means use the term "perfect" if the language has a
structure that *can* be translated as an English perfect. But when you've
done so, you've only done half the job. You still need to describe the
*meaning* of that perfect in terms of the language-dependent oppositions
relevant for the language in question (in other words, describe exactly
when the language would use that perfect, and when it wouldn't). Because
there is simply no way that language-specific perfect will be exactly
identical in terms of semantics with the English perfect.

Told that way, this may sound obvious. But the point of the manifesto is
that while obvious, it's something quite a lot of linguists seem to have
forgotten, whether through sheer laziness or through fascination with
linguistic theories and fads that only make sense within the particular
semantics of English.

The point of the manifesto can be summed up like this: by all means, be
traditional in your grammar descriptions. Use the traditional Euro-centric
grammatical terms, use a traditional structure of phonology, morphology,
syntax, lexicon (in that order). But do not write your grammar as if the
labels you're using are anything but that, labels. Write your grammar based
on the phenomena actually present in the language, and the oppositions
actually made in its grammar, not based on your pet linguistic theory. And
describe these oppositions fully and exhaustively: do not assume that just
because a certain structure can be equivalent to a certain English
structure (or to whatever metalinguistic thingamabob present in your
linguistic theory), it is automatically 100% identical to it, or that a
certain structure in a language can be described as an isolated island,
separate from the rest of the language.

A language is a system, where everything is interdependent and contrasting
each other. A specific structure in a language only has meaning *in
contrast to other structures in that language*, and this fact should be
reflected in your description.


> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:51 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 17/11/2015 13:47, R A Brown wrote:
> >
> >> On 17/11/2015 13:12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 15 November 2015 at 19:05, And Rosta  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Naturalist artlangers are likely to find interesting
> >>>> this paper:
> >>>>
> >>>> van Driem, George. 2007. 'A holistic approach to the
> >>>> fine art of grammar writing: The Dallas Manifesto'.
> >>>>
> >>> [snip]
> >
> > I've read the manifesto itself (keeping the other part
> >>> for later).
> >>>
> >>
> >> I meant to read it - put it aside, and forgot.
> >> Christophe's email now means I shall be reading it this
> >> afternoon   :)
> >>
> >
> > I've read it now   :)
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > ... and these arguments are the soundest I've read in
> >>> a long time.
> >>>
> >>
> > I concur.
> >
> > Anyone who's got at least some knowledge of
> >>> non-Indo-European languages or, like us, has actually
> >>> worked to create stuff from that difficult to grab
> >>> matter that is language will see this person's
> >>> arguments resonate with them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Good - I look forward to the resonating   :)
> >>
> >
> > ... and I wasn't disappointed.  They resonated with me.
> >
> > It's not prejudice when it's argumented and based on
> >>> actual facts. And yes, it's unashamedly anti-Chomsky
> >>> and anti-Platonic. That's two positive points in my
> >>> book :P.
> >>>
> >>
> >> ... and in my book also    ;)
> >>
> >
> > It's gone up more than two positive points now.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>
> >>> All in all, a very good read.
> >>>
> >>
> > It is indeed!
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Thanks, Christophe.
> >>
> >
> > Thanks again for prompting me to read it.  As you say, a
> > very good read.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ray
> > ==================================
> > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> > ==================================
> > "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
> > wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> > [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> > "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> > will always interfere with language".
> >
>



-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)

Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
Personal Tumblr: http://christophoronomicon.tumblr.com/

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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