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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: 'A holistic approach to the fine art of grammar writing'

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:54:25 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 17.11.2015 14:12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:

> On 15 November 2015 at 19:05, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Naturalist artlangers are likely to find interesting this paper:
>>
>> van Driem, George. 2007. 'A holistic approach to the fine art of grammar
>> writing: The Dallas Manifesto'.
>> <
>> http://www.himalayanlanguages.org/files/driem/pdfs/2007DallasManifesto.pdf
>> It's half a ranty manifesto that will chime with many conlangers'
>> prejudices, and half a study of evidentiality in a Tibeto-Burman language.
>>
>>
> I've read the manifesto itself (keeping the other part for later). I don't
> think it is "ranty" so much as exasperated for having to point out what
> should be obvious: that languages should be described in their own terms
> rather than force them into theoretical straitjackets that bring nothing to
> the table and only obfuscate or downright misrepresent linguistic
> phenomena; that even closely related structures in closely related
> languages will never be exact equivalents and that it's the linguist's job
> to recognise that and to correctly describe it; and that theoretical
> discussions are useless when they are based on misunderstood examples from
> underdescribed languages or on one's linguistic prejudice based on one's
> native language.

Right.  The things van Driem points out *should* be obvious to any 
linguist writing a grammar; but apparently, they unfortunately aren't, 
making such a manifesto necessary.  We all know examples of the results 
of the errors he talks about.

This is a standard of quality I strive (but admittedly not always 
succeed) to comply with the grammars of my conlangs.  For instance, 
while I use such well-known terms such as "dative case" where they can 
be applied without brute force, I don't say, "the dative case is marked 
with the suffix -n" without explaining what the "dative case" is used 
for in the language.

> Yes, the tone is angry. But anger alone doesn't disqualify someone when
> their arguments are sound, and these arguments are the soundest I've read
> in a long time. Anyone who's got at least some knowledge of
> non-Indo-European languages or, like us, has actually worked to create
> stuff from that difficult to grab matter that is language will see this
> person's arguments resonate with them. It's not prejudice when it's
> argumented and based on actual facts. And yes, it's unashamedly
> anti-Chomsky and anti-Platonic. That's two positive points in my book :P.

It is right to be angry in tone if (1) the argumentation is sound and 
(2) the matter appears to be urgent.  And van Driem's argumentation *is* 
sound, and apparently, the matter is also urgent, as there are quite a 
few badly-written and badly-researched grammars in circulation.  We all 
know examples of bad grammars!

> And the most interesting part of the manifesto is that it pleads for a
> relatively traditional method of describing language: do reuse terminology
> for structures that are analogous to structures in other languages, so long
> as you treat terminology for what it should be: a set of labels that are
> useful but *must* be adapted based on language-specific data, rather than
> as a set of metalinguistic platonic concepts that somehow exist on their
> own. That's how I've always treated linguistic terminology, and it's served
> me very well.

Yep.  With my grammar of Old Albic, I generally use established 
linguistic terminology, in order not to add unnecessary obscurity; but I 
*always* say what those categories *mean*.  (One of the problems I have 
with Lojban grammar is that everything is labeled with hard-to-remember 
Lojban words, but that probably is to a large part due to the fact that 
Lojban grammar is in many aspects alien to natlang grammar and 
conventional grammatic terminology does not apply well.)  There are some 
examples of native terminology adopted in grammar writing, such as 
_screeve_ (from Georgian _mt'sk'rivi_ 'row') for a category of 
Kartvelian verbal morphology that encodes combinations of tense, aspect 
and mood.

> All in all, a very good read. I will read the next part with interest, once
> I get to it.

Yes, a very good read, and highly recommendable to conlangers!  Next 
time I come to update my Conlang page (which is overdue, but I am 
currently busy with other things), I shall link to it.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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