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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Eeny meeny (was: Re: [OT] McWhorter on why English is weird

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:04:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (56 lines)

In my early teens, c1980, I read in a 'pop academic' book (of the ilk of
Simeon Potter's _Our language_) that _eeny meeny miney moe_ might be '1 2 3
4' in Pictish. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Alex: lovely anecdote!

--And.
On 19 Nov 2015 19:46, "Alex Fink" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:07:03 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >Further "When saying ‘eeny, meeny, miny, moe’, have you ever
> >felt like you were kind of counting? Well, you are – in
> >Celtic numbers, chewed up over time but recognisably
> >descended from the ones rural Britishers used when counting
> >animals and playing games" is, at best, controversial.  To
> >state it as a bald fact is inaccurate.  They simply are
> >_not_ recognizably descended, otherwise there would be no
> >controversy.
> >
> >"Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" rhymes (and there are variants) are
> >not attested before the 19th century and, apart possibly
> >from "eeny", bear no resemblance to any Brittonic numerals.
> >A more likely theory IMO is that they were brought over
> >by British colonials returning from the Indian Sub-Continent
> >in a doggerel version of an Indian children's rhyme:
> >ubi eni mana bou,
> >baji neki baji thou,
> >elim tilim latim gou.
>
> Well, let me adduce a personal anecdote, for all it's worth.  One day my
> mom and I were talking about Finnish, and I began counting, _yksi kaksi
> kolme..._  And the scales-falling-from-eyes look flashed on her face, and
> she told of how her father, a Latvian (and an estimable polyglot), chanted
> a ditty occasionally that went [Iksi kIksi kaksi kola], which she'd always
> taken to be just as meaningless as "eeny meeny miny moe".  (Indeed the
> formal parallels between the two are rather striking!)  So if my grandpa's
> sequence could excrete an extra member between its original 'one' and 'two'
> blending their forms, why mightn't the eeny sequence have undergone similar
> processes?
>
> I suppose opaque borrowed rhymes like yours would be subject to just the
> same pressures as opaque borrowed counting sequences, so this isn't
> diagnostic.  But on the first hand, the publication in which the rhyme you
> point to appears is from 2004; I can't get access to the text, but with
> that as a terminus ante quem, the Indian rhyme could well represent a
> borrowing of the English one, as opposed to vice versa!  My gut feeling is
> e.g. that the homogeneising replacement of "catch a" and "by the" with two
> _baji_s (all meaningless in the recipient language) is likelier than the
> nativisation of two identical source elements by two parts of a fully
> grammatical sentence with little formal or even syntactic commonality.
>
> Alex
>

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