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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: U2D: a language of the UNLWS type

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:39:03 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (58 lines)

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:59:24 -0500, Isolde Helmut <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:16:20 +0000, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>I'd also compare
>>something like the component level in the Chinese script, above
>>strokes but below whole characters, though it's not clear if there are
>>any combinations which are completely arbitrary as opposed to just
>>metaphorical like Chinese has.
>
>I think most 'arbitrary' combinations in Chinese would be phonetic. There's nothing like that in U2D, but I suspect that it would be necessary to use that to build a really large lexicon, say, 10,000 words or more. Although not interesting in the 2D-native sense, the component approach does allow for ready comparison to a spoken language, either with predictable rules or with a semantic/phonetic compound system.

The phonetic mechanism is certainly the most prominent one in Chinese, with no counterpart in the purely-written setting.  But there are also component sharings which have nothing to do with sound, but which reflect, as it were, the phonologisation of the graphic substance itself.  To take one example of the sort of thing I mean: the (traditional!) character U+9F8D 'dragon' has at its left side 'stand' above 'meat'.  But in graphical etymology 'dragon' is indivisible, having been a pictograph (xiang4xing2); it merely had a bunch of strokes which happened to coalesce through graphic evolution with other components.

If a purely-written language were around in the wild and had time to evolve, you'd expect this sort of thing to play a not insignificant role in the synchronic situation for what the apparent components were.  (The graphical analogue of breaking in sound change, I suppose.)

>Although nothing is grammatically wrong with a single novel-length causal trunk of writing, it might be rather difficult to read, just as a single novel-length paragraph of spoken language might be. In the writing examples I've done, I've tended towards using more space, rather than less, and even on such a small scale, there tend to appear different 'sections' of the text.

The few examples of large UNLWS texts we've worked on, mostly relay entries, show the same sort of structure.  What wasn't clear to us is how much this is inherent to the structure of human-comprehensible narrative or naturally occurring constellations of participants, and how much of it could be reckoned an artifact of translation, a leftover from linear style.  If the latter, then, okay, perhaps we'd find it difficult, but we're hardly native speakers.

The question of what UNLWS poetry is like continues to vex us, but this suggests a possibility: if an ordinarily text has this sort of clumping, i.e. has gaps at all scales, large and small, in its layout on the (large) page, then maybe a way to be poetic is to write a text that *doesn't*, that has a nice uniform-density mesh of referents and events at all scales.  (Without, of course, achieving the effect by just scrambing an ordinary text and leaving a spaghetti of lines everywhere.)

What is U2D poetry like, do you know?

>>In your example with the clock hands, it is not so clear to me that
>>you've broken the rule of "separate verbs for separate actions": the
>>two hands do move in concert, and it would be very natural to consider
>>that one action.  But for the general case, maybe you're in want of
>>something like a distributive derivation on the verb
>>[which is sorta what UNLWS might use a "stack" for.
>
>You're right; the clock example is not the best example of rule-breaking. In the general case, a distributive could work. Though, it seems like a fairly uncommon usage, since it could only refer to one or two configurations of subjects and objects, and presumably not bind to any separate nouns. That alone should imply spatial and temporal cohabitation, or at least conceptual, so I don't think rule-breaking in that manner is ever going to be confusing to a reader. Though, at that point, it might turn from a rule violation into a rule itself.

Mm, what would the rule be, then?  A verb which is bound to by a collection of dot-relations, the one you call "Is (equivalence)", displays this reading? or something else of that sort?  Perhaps you could still analyse that construction as something like a periphrastic distributive, though that might be speaking uselessly loosely.

>>UNLWS referents are not unmarked for number, they are always
>>singular unless group morphology is present, though they can be
>>unmarked for the generic vs. specific contrast.  So, from its
>>perspective, by adding unmarkedness for number you've introduced the
>>means to obviate the more general problem... but then by limiting this
>>unmarkedness to nouns you've not taken it up.]
>
>I'm not sure what general problem that would solve. Insofar as verbs are part of the same broad 'action', like nouns are part of the same 'group', I can't see how it would solve the problem above.

OK, if U2D plurals are constrained to be collective like that, it indeed wouldn't help much.  But that's not a necessary restriction on plurals in familiar languages, or at least the unifying factor of the 'groups' can be as tenuous as you like.  If I gave you just the extension of, say, "former roommates of Nobel laureates", only a preternatural trivia maven could observe what makes them a 'group', but it's a perfectly cogent plural noun phrase.

[I suppose I shouldn't've said that group morphology makes UNLWS nouns non-singular.  It's not clear if grammatical number is a category useful in the analysis of UNLWS at all.]

>>As for
>>"or", one might ask what kind of a thing "you or I" is, if "you and I"
>>is a group: is it purely shorthand for a disjunction of two sentences?
>>or is it a single person whose identity is unknown to ___? or?
>
>The latter; more generally, if you have a things bound to one side (the large side) of "or", then the other side refers to one of those things, unknown to the writer which. This is much more than a disjunction, because the unknown noun can be treated like any other noun. In practice, it's rarely useful to be able to do that, except that it's really the only convenient way to ask, "Which of X fulfils Y?"

I think the UNLWS approach to "Which of X fulfils Y?" would be just to list all the elements of X and ask "Does X_i fulfil Y?" for each; since the yes-no question morph is relatively lightweight, that wouldn't be too distracting.  The same could also be done with a stack.  Either approach loses the implicature that there is at least one X that fulfils Y, but how often do we really need that implicature?

Alex

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