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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Eeny, meeny, miny, moe (was [OT] McWhorter on why English is weird0

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Nov 2015 07:55:46 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (63 lines)

On 19/11/2015 21:15, R A Brown wrote:
> On 19/11/2015 19:46, Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]
>
>> I suppose opaque borrowed rhymes like yours would be
>> subject to just the same pressures as opaque borrowed
>> counting sequences, so this isn't diagnostic.  But on
>> the first hand, the publication in which the rhyme you
>>  point to appears is from 2004;
>
> From what I understand, the book in question was quoting
>  what the author considered was a _traditional_ counting
>  chant.  But without the context, we cannot argue either
> way.

The reference is:
"Kamakhya, a socio-cultural study", by Nihar Ranjan Mishra.
New Delhi: D.K. Printworld, 2004, page 157

But, like Alex, I cannot find the actual text of page 157 -
nor, for that matter, of any of the book!

>> I can't get access to the text, but with that as a
>> terminus ante quem, the Indian rhyme could well
>> represent a borrowing of the English one, as opposed
>> to vice versa!
>>
> Yes, without seeing the full text.  Somewhere earlier
> this evening I found another text giving similar, but
> identical forms, in an older Hindi version.  I must look
> for it again.

I've found it!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UALji7FE-1UC&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=ubi+eni+mana+bou&source=bl&ots=1HbX-7dpTu&sig=r7hx-de3Kpi6vieiYvMgFZNjeIA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjipP6zvp7JAhWBxhoKHTpyDCYQ6AEIKTAC#v=onepage&q=ubi%20eni%20mana%20bou&f=false

Scroll back to the beginning of the notes for Chapter 1
(bottom of page 441) and you'll find quite a few interesting
variants of the counting rhyme, not only ...

> There are many similar variants in other European
> languages, apparently.  But AFAIK they are not attested
> earlier than the 19th century.

... but also from the Indian sub-continent.

> The origin of the words seem to me the subject of much
> speculation with several different theories.

Let's be honest - we just don't know. But IMNSHO the
derivation from "Celtic" numbers is, to say the least, very
unlikely.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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