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CONLANG  November 2015, Week 3

CONLANG November 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Comparison of Known Word Generators (was: Re: A Model for Weighted Random Word Generation)

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:13:00 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

On 20 November 2015 at 08:44, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2015 08:40, "Logan Kearsley" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> On 18 November 2015 at 02:22, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> [...]
>> >>Jim mentioned that one in the other thread on Word Building. It is a
>> >>pretty neat little tool, but it doesn't do quite exactly the same
>> >>things as Logopoeist does / is intended to do once I finish all the
>> >>pending feature ideas. Nevertheless, yes, there is a lot of
>> >>wheel-reinvention in this space, which is why I'd like to get a bunch
>> >>of existing word generators collected in one place for easy
>> >>comparison.
>> >
>> > This, a start has been made on on Frath:
>> >   http://www.frathwiki.com/Software_tools_for_conlanging#Word_generators
>> >
>> > It could do with more comparative discussion of the features of each,
> certainly...
>>
>> That is a reasonably good list to start with. Here's what I have
>> managed to glean from spending a few hours investigating
>> general-purpose word generation options:
>
> Thanks for that survey, Logan.
>
> As I had expected, none of the generators take the approach I would take,
> yet I find that surprising. It seems to me that these generators generate
> phonological forms but not lexical items; they don't match phonological
> forms to lexical entries. That has to be done manually. Isn't part of the
> convenience, and part of the pleasure and delight, of automatic generators
> that you give it the necessary input and then press a button and sit back
> and come out with a lexicon? If you assign randomly generated forms to
> lexical entries haphazardly, you'll flout the tendency for more basic lexis
> to have more basic forms.

WordBuilder actually does have the feature of automatically assigning
meanings, but not in so sophisticated a manner as you would like. I
left that bit out of the overview because it seems to be generally
regarded as a useless feature, but perhaps I should include it for
completeness anyway.

> By contrast, my method calculates the complexity value for phonological
> forms, and on the basis of manually-specified basicness values in lexical
> entries assigns forms to lexical entries in a way consistent with the
> tendency for more basic lexis to have more basic forms.

While putting All The Features into one big package does seem a
popular approach, this seems to me like yet another feature that could
be easily, and best, implemented as separate tool that operates on
pre-generated wordlists, and thus could be be combined with a bunch of
different word generators.

> And even tho the neat idea of autogenerating lorem ipsum hadn't occurred to
> me before reading Logan's summary, it strikes me that my method generates
> better lorem ipsum (if it has access to enough lexical entries): it looks
> as tho the generators Logan describes wouldn't capture the way more basic
> words are more frequent, whereas my method could. (Either approach would
> fail to produce good lorem ipsum for inflected lgs, tho.)

And that's where we need conlang-morphological-analyzers! Which I will
get to eventually....

And that's a good segue into the fact that I was today introduced to
yet another word generator, missing from that first list:
https://github.com/advoadne/Langcraft
(It has a dedicated website address as well, but it redirects to some
spammy advertising pages- I suspect the domain expired). It *aims* to
be a complete language construction/description system, including
morphology and syntax, interlinear gloss generator, and automatic
website creation, but at the moment it is limited to the word
generating parts (the rest has not yet been implemented), which uses
DSL similar to WordBuilder (though on cursory examination, it looks
more declarative / less imperative). And it's written in Java, which
is not my favorite development environment but is surprisingly unique
among the tools I've looked at so far. I didn't realize that before,
but, really, you'd expect more of the Younger Generation to be writing
in Java....


On 20 November 2015 at 07:42, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Den 2015-11-20 kl. 01:35, skrev Jim Henry:
>>>
>>> Everyword:
>>> >Offline (Perl), command-line / DSL-based. Unicode support is unknown.
>>> >Not technically a random word generator. Everyword generates all
>>> >possible words for a finite, fixed-length phonology (no repetitions or
>
>> Benct has an improved version of this called wordgen.  I'm not sure if
>> it's available from his website or if he emailed it to me.
>
> I emailed an earlier version to you. It is not really an improved
> version of everyword since unlike everyword it doesn't generate
> every possible word from a set of syllable structures. The DSL of
> the first version was partly inspired by that of everyword but
> that has changed in later versions. The resent word generator
> discussion has prompted me to do a long overdue rewrite which
> removes the requirement to have whitespace around all tokens
> including parentheses and brackets.

Yay! People are being inspired to work on stuff!

>  A real reason to hold back may be its
> primitive mechanism compared to randomization according to Zipf's
> law and mathemagical refinements.

Nah. The fancy stuff has it's own reason to exist, but just because
fancy stuff is available doesn't mean less-fancy stuff won't be useful
to someone. And from your example, this does actually look quite fancy
in other ways.

> A program may look like this:
[snip]
> Thoughts, anybody?

My first impression, having also looked at Boris, was "this feels a
lot like reading Perl; do people who write word generators in Perl
just have a tendency to write DSLs that also look like Perl?" But that
is perhaps unfair; my own format for Logopoeist uses sigils, after
all, because it's easier to parse both for the computer and for me
(and I would hope for other humans, but I can't be sure about that!) I
think this particular example just looks overly noisy because of the
extensive use of literal tokens everywhere. More extensive use of
phoneme-class variables (does it even have phoneme-class variables at
all? I can't tell...) would make it much more readability, so it
actually is reminiscent of simplified syllable-structure formulas.
Your proposed simplification of the brackets/subrules system does seem
like a good idea to me as well.

-l.

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