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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 2015, Week 5

CONLANG November 2015, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Haotyétpi: a new language, and a question about glossing

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:38:24 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (136 lines)

On 30 November 2015 at 02:54, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> As you know, for the last few years I've been exclusively working on Moten,
> trying to get it to the point where it can actually be used to translate
> longer texts, and trying to get rid of my issues with lexicon creation. And
> as you may also know, I've been relatively successful, culminating with my
> translation of The North Wind and the Sun (
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ba74aEwr57SmtFSko1VmZPOGM).
>
> However, by last year's Lexember I felt the first symptoms of what could
> only be seen as some kind of Moten fatigue. Basically, I was still reading
> about all these cool natlang features, and this got my creative juices
> running wild. Unfortunately, Moten is pretty much set in stone, with the
> only place where I can still have some creativity being the lexicon.
> Because of that, I had all that creative energy, and nowhere to use it, and
> my creative juices started clogging my brain pipes (to stretch the metaphor
> to the breaking point :) ). By that time, this was even starting to affect
> my normal functioning, causing all kinds of issues with my thought
> processes (lots of blocks, affecting my productivity very hard), even those
> unrelated to conlanging. But even more importantly, working on Moten
> started to feel like a chore to me, and that was a clear signal that
> something was going really wrong. Conlanging should never feel like a chore!
>
> So I did the only thing I could think of: pause my work on Moten, and let
> my creative juices flow: after the LCC, I started working on a new
> language. This was the only way to clear up my mind and get it to work
> normally again. And it's working: although I'm still not back at full
> productivity yet, I've been able to feel the pressure going down in my head
> for the last few months.

This is probably one of the best descriptions I have ever read of the
"need to create".

> Now, the new language I'm working on, which is currently called Haotyétpi,
> unlike Moten, is far from set in stone, and still in a state of flux. But
> enough of it is stable that I feel I can share about it on the list,
> especially since I've come to a point where I actually need your help to
> get further.
>
> But first things first. If you want to read about Haotyétpi, please check
> out this document:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Ba74aEwr57dW1GNEJGei1qRjg. It's quite
> incomplete (I've only worked on it when I had some idle time, and I haven't
> had much of it lately), full of empty sections, and it lacks examples, but
> it should give you an idea of what the language looks like. Things may
> change of course, but the basic structure of the language should now stay
> the same whatever happens.

At 74 pages, I think you've still managed to get more detail
documented all in one place than I have ever managed!

> - Alignment is... an open question at the moment. Quite a few features of
> the language look ergative, but because the core arguments are unmarked
> it's difficult to tell for certain. Neither is it possible to ascertain
> alignment from the argument agreement on the verb: while intransitive verbs
> mark the subject via prefixes, and transitive verbs mark the subject via
> suffixes and the object via prefixes, these object prefixes are *not all*
> identical to the intransitive subject prefixes, although they are clearly
> related (and the prefixes for plural persons and the indefinite person
> *are* identical);

This sounds similar to the situation in Celimine. My primary arguments
for an ergative analysis in that case are a combination of history
(internal-historically, the proto-language has ergative morphology),
voice operations (there's an explicit antipassive construction, not so
much a passive), and pivot behavior (if you conjoin a transitive verb
with an intransitive, they share an absolutive argument, not a
nominative).

> So, now, onto my problem. One thing I want to do with my Haotyétpi is get
> examples right, i.e. with full interlinear glosses. But right from the very
> first example sentence I tried to translate (see appendix A of the linked
> document), I hit a snag: how do I gloss idioms that are so common they are
> basically part of the grammar, that are clearly analytic, but whose meaning
> cannot be derived from the meaning of their parts?
>
> Basically, the example in question is "the sun shines" (or "the sun
> shone/will shine/is shining". They are all translated the same way in
> Haotyétpi). A natural translation of such a sentence is _kyarrú ponop nák
> marese_, where _kyarrú_ means "sun (as a weather phenomenon)", _nák_ means
> "to stand, to stand up" (used with weather phenomena to mean "to happen"),
> and _=ponop_ is the topic marker (optional in principle, but since
> Haotyétpi seems to hate having stressed syllables directly next to each
> other, it's used here to separate them). The last part _=marese_ (I use the
> = sign here to indicate that it's a clitic) is the one I have a problem
> glossing.
>
> Haotyétpi has these sentence final clitics, not unlike Japanese "ka", "yo"
> or "ne". One of them is the assertive _=ka_, which indicates that the
> speaker has finished talking and that they consider what they've just said
> to be the truth. The thing is, in Haotyétpi, sentence final clitics are
> only rarely directly used after verbs (unlike Japanese). This is considered
> too abrupt, and especially with the assertive clitic can be seen as rude
> (basically, saying _=ka_ directly after the verb is not unlike saying
> "don't you dare disagree with me"). To soften it, sentence final clitics
> are usually added after the sentence is first nominalised, and then
> something like the copula _-se_ (it's a suffix) or the existential verb
> _ás_ is added. In the case of the assertive clitic, the most common
> nominalisation is the clitic _=mare_ (_=pi_ is also common) followed by the
> copula _-se_, resulting in _=marese ka_. But a second feature of Haotyétpi
> is that when such nominalisations are used, it's common to actually omit
> the sentence final clitic altogether, with the nominalisation itself taking
> on the meaning of the clitic. In the case of _=marese_, it's actually so
> common to end a sentence with it that it's lost most of its assertive
> meaning and it is basically used as a kind of spoken period, mandatorily
> used at the end of an utterance especially when it is considered to be a
> fact by the speaker.
>
> Because of that, I'm unsure how I should gloss _=marese_. Should I gloss
> its internal structure (basically as NMLZ-COP), despite the fact that its
> actual meaning can't be guessed from that structure, and that the free
> translation most likely can't make it clear what it means in most cases?
> (that's what I'm doing at the moment) Or should I just gloss it as ASSERT,
> forgetting that it's analytical, and that the actual assertive clitic is in
> fact omitted and that's the only reason why this structure has that meaning?

Well, the point of glosses is to help the reader understand *why* and
example means what it does. So, I would think "how would a native
speaker think of this" or "how would a learner understand this?" If
the natives think of =marese as having internal structure, or if a
student learning the language would be taught it that way, then gloss
it that way. But if it is understood and taught as a single
(polysemous) unit, which in this case has the same meaning as the
"actual" assertive clitic, then gloss it that way.

If you go with the second option (gloss the idiomatic meaning, not the
analysis), however, I'd then add a note somewhere, for each common
idiom, that explains once "there's this phrase that is used with
such-and-such idiomatic meaning, and is analyzed thusly... and it's
used in this idiomatic way because... and henceforth glosses will skip
the analysis and just say what it means."

-l.

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August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 5
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