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CONLANG  December 2015, Week 2

CONLANG December 2015, Week 2

Subject:

Re: On the design of an ideal language

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:53:49 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (72 lines)

Double-header.

On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:12:32 -0500, Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I think of the core language of SPEL (Speakable Programming for Every
>Language) as an Ideal Language.

SPEL, for convenience, is
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/spel/ .
I can't say that I agree with your assessment.  To me SPEL seems to be trying to do too many things, and manages none of them convincingly.

>Ideal of course has to have a purpose.  In this case it is ideal as an
>Inter-language from which world human languages and popular computer
>languages can be translated to and from with minimal loss of information,
>due to it supporting their varied grammar structures.

I read that the purpose of SPEL is to be a computer programming language which is also a machine translation interlingua.  But I don't even understand these purposes.  In what sense is it a programming language?  None of the samples there are programs in any way I can understand on inspection.  Anyway, why would one want one's machine translation interlingua to be a programming language -- what programs would one write in it?  What does it mean to translate between a human language and a computer language?  

>Additionally it is ideal in terms of succinctness since it has to be very
>dense to take up the least amount of space when being transfered or
>processed. 

It sounds like that's just a goal.  To be ideal it would have to fully _achieve_ that goal.  Have you compared it e.g. against the various briefscripts and speedtalks and tachygraphies and languages like Lin that you can read about in the list archives?

>Also phonemically ideal in terms that it uses the most common
>phonemes in the world that, so should be the easiest to pronounce for the
>largest section of the population. Phonotactics, syntax and grammr is also
>based on what is most common, along with what is easiest to process by
>computers.

So it also strives to be a human-to-human IAL?  That's yet another goal on the list, and one in grave tension with the others.  For one, I'd expect that the ideal IAL would have as little fiddly marking (of whatever sort) as possible for ease of use, whereas the ideal machine translation interlingua would have as *much* fiddly marking as possible for maximal ability to retain subtle distinctions encoded in its source languages.

In fact... from the demo page at sourceforge, it seems SPEL isn't even _one_ interlingua, human or computer, but is a parallel set of systems piggybacking on each of a bunch of natural languages, adding the localised equivalent of "su" and "ya" and so on, and discarding morphology.  How is a _set_ of languages supposed to be an IAL -- don't I still have to learn Arabic lexis to talk to a speaker of Arabic-localised SPEL?  And which one is the machine translation interlingua, or are they all?  And isn't stripping morphology right out of the gate a very bad idea for translation fidelity?

>The vocabulary stems are additionally based on the phonemes which are most
>common to a word from 11 different language families.

Lojban uses a similar scheme.  I've heard the Lobjan instance held forth as a memory aid; but except in cases where all of Europe (or beyond!) shares cognates, like the etyma of _logji_, I can't say I've found its mnemonic value appreciable.  The rigidity of the scheme botches even some cases where "international" vocabulary might've shone through, like _grake_ 'gram' from which the necessity to incorporate the Chinese stem ousts the /m/.  

Maybe these schemes gives the generated vocabulary a weak, averaged sense of phonotactics?  Besides that, the only real advantages I see to them myself are a very conspicuous neutrality (as long as you've made the cut to have your language considered at all!), and the simple fact of being algorithmic (once you've done sense alignment, which demands great quantities of human labour of a sort that's still not well automable outside of big-data corpus methods).



>On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Guilherme Holzmann <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
> De: "Mechthild Czapp" <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> > Am 14.12.2015 um 18:27 schrieb Daniel Bowman <[log in to unmask]>:
>> >
>> >> Does anyone else have thoughts on what would constitute their vision of
>> >> an ideal language?
>> >>
>> > As others have pointed out, the question is too vague.  Ideal for what
>> > purpose?  Communication? Aesthetics? Inoffensiveness?  Offensiveness?

The design of a maximally inoffensive language was already considered by the sages of old.  Jacques Guy in 1993 posted about his take:
  http://www.oocities.org/raiu_harrison/conlang/conl9308.txt s.v. "Inoffensish".

>> ... and now I want to know how to make a maximally offensive conlang.
>
> You could do that by homophony. I remember seeing a jokelang where "they
> sat on the sofa" could also be parsed as something with dolphins and
> lesbians.

Naw, I'd read such things as ribald puns (which can be a bonding activity!) rather than high offensiveness; you need genuine semantic spread.  You know, have there be no word for [person of kind X] that is not an extended application of a name for some dirty animal or sexual perversion or whatnot.  But individual lexemes are small potatoes, it's easy to craft thòse to give offence; and anyway the foregoing is quite everyday.  

Better to build it into the structure.  Noun class systems should provide a rich field.  I was impressed in this wise once by a South American natlang, of which I've forgotten any other details, having a noun class containing men and elongated objects and another containing women and round objects, because, you see, women are fat.

But how would you create an offensive aspect system, say? or relative-clause forming construction? or system of adpositional contrasts? or ...?

Alex

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