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CONLANG  December 2015, Week 4

CONLANG December 2015, Week 4

Subject:

Re: THEORY: symmetry of verb "to be"

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:07:09 -0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

2015-12-21 21:16 GMT-02:00 Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>:

> On 21 December 2015 at 15:54, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > I cannot think of any natlang that has distinct copulative verbs (or
> other
> > forms of expressing equivalence) exactly like the two meanings you
> listed.
> > In English, if you say, "John is the driver," you are saying that John is
> > the person who is driving / will be driving / can drive. This is your
> > meaning #2. Notice that "John" and "the driver" are not really identical.
> > "John" refers to a person whose identity is understood by the speaker and
> > the listener, and "the driver" is a role that John is fulling (currently
> or
> > potentially).
>
> I dispute this analysis. Of course, both of us may be correct in our
> own dia-/idiolects, but it seems to me that, when made definite, "the
> driver" is indeed a specific person whom "John" is identified with,
> not a role that John is fulfilling. They are two phrases that have the
> same referent, and the point of the sentence is to inform you that
> these two different descriptions, which need not necessarily have the
> same referent, actually do.
>

Come to think of it, if we are in a bus, it's more assured that there is a
driver than that there is a "John".

-- Who's the driver?
-- John is the driver. [= The driver is John.]

In the model used in the book

http://folhashop.folha.uol.com.br/inferencias-lexicais-e-interpretacao-de-redes-de-predicados-julio-cabrera-olavo-leopoldino-da-silva-filho-8523009507.html

a name such as "John" mean "an entity among all entities that are called
John". To completely define a given "John", it would be necessary to define
all its distinctive predicates: person, driver, living in California, city
X, street Y, etc. Naturally, the book admits that context prevents us from
having to make extensive definitions.



> > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> In my conlang Muai, verbs whose steem have the form CVNC- are
> "symmetric"
> >> when the two consonants are equal, which means that subject and object
> can
> >> be interchanged without changing the meaning of the sentence.
> >>
> >> For instance, the verb "senso" means "{event 1} to occur simultaneously
> >> with {event 2}", which is obviouslly the same of "{event 2} to occur
> >> simultaneously with {event 1}".
> >>
> >> However, I can the verb "to be" in symmetric and non-symmetric ways:
> >>
> >> {entity 1} to share predicates with {entity 2}
> >> or
> >> {entity} to have predicate {predicate}.
> >>
> >> If I say "John is the driver", am I saying "there is a John, there is a
> >> driver, and thy share the predicate of being the same person" or "there
> is
> >> a man called John and he has 'being the driver' as a predicate" ?
> >>
> >> Sometimes, I interpret copula verbs not using accusative as an evidence
> >> that subject and predicate (the "object" in my conlang) are equivalent.
> >>
> >> Do any languages have distinct to-be verbs with meanings similar to the
> >> definitions above?
>
> Returning to this original question, I have discovered something that
> may be of relevance. I was just reading "A Holistic Approach to the
> Fine Art of Grammar Writing" (which was posted to the list some time
> ago), and quite near the beginning there are some examples from
> Nepali, which has two translations of "to be"- "hunu" and "chanu".
> According to that source, "hunu" is used to identify the subject "as,
> or in terms of" the predicate, while "chanu" is used to describe the
> existence or characteristics of the subject.
>

I'm not sure I understand it. Could you show us a "minimal pair of
sentences"?

I hunu teacher : A teacher is what I am.
I chanu teacher : Being a teacher is one of my characteristics.



> That feels to me like a very similar distinction to the one I make
> between "John is a..." vs. "John is the...",


Hmmm... I'm still not sure of which is "hunu" and which is "chanu"...



> and may (if I understand
> your description correctly) be pretty close to the distinction you
> have in mind as well.
>

Well, although I don't understand hanu-chanu well, I think the distinction
"is the driver" and "is a driver" is really very close to the symmetric and
asymmetric to-be verbs that must be there in Muai.

.kioi tinto tenki. : I am [the] teacher = [the] teacher am I (is me? is I?)
.kioi tinho tenki. : I have the predicate of being [a] teacher = I am a
teacher

Inverting both sentences,

.tenki tinto kioi. : the teacher am I
.tenki tinho kioi. : teacher has the predicate of being me

It seems that it makes little difference in practice...



> -l.
>

Até mais!

Leonardo

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