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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  December 2015, Week 4

CONLANG December 2015, Week 4

Subject:

Re: van Steenbergen Hexagon

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:58:45 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

On 22/12/2015 14:41, And Rosta wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2015 13:58, "R A Brown" wrote:
>> It's surely the simplicity of the Gnoli triangle that
>> has been its success.
>
> More than mere simplicity, it is also simply a better
> primary classification system than alternatives: it
> takes the fundamental art--enge axis and modifies it to
> split enge into two so that the three main genera or
> population clusters of conlangs are accommodated.

Agreed 100%

> On 22 Dec 2015 11:13, "R A Brown" wrote:
>>
>> On 21/12/2015 17:43, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>>
>>> Hallo conlangers!
>>>
>>> On 21.12.2015 14:58, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]

>>>> Yes - particularly as the terms are far from clear,
>>>> except in the case of auxlangs. We've argued about
>>>> how meaningful the terms are on this list before.
>>>> For me, to term Tolkien's elven languages as "a
>>>> priori" seems an utter nonsense as they so patently
>>>> owe much to natlangs.
>>>
>>> Certainly, the Quendian languages are not built from
>>>  "first principles" and thus not a priori languages
>>> in the auxlang sense. But ...

They most clearly are not.

>>
>> Indeed not.  The terms, as I'm sure we all know, are
>> taken from epistemology.  It was Couturat and Leau who
>> first used these terms in describing auxlangs.  They
>> denoted the 18th century 'philosophic' langs

OOPS!! I should have written 17th century!

>> (and subsequent langs of the same sort) as "a priori"
>> since they considered them to be built from first
>> principles with no reference to natlangs; and others
>> like Esperanto, Ido, Novial etc were denoted as "a
>> posteriori" because they derived their vocabulary,
>> morphology and syntax (largely) from natlangs.

Yes, I've checked again.  It is very clear IMO that Couturat
and Leau refer to _all_ aspects of the language and not
merely the vocabulary:
{quote}
Il y a, d'une part, des projets qui, pour des raisons
diverses, ne tiennent aucun compte des langues naturelles,
et qui sont des langues originales, construites de toutes
pièces : nous les appelons _systèmes a priori_. Il y a,
d'autre part, des projets qui, prenant pour modèle les
langues naturelles (particulièrement les langues
européennes), s'efforcent de les imiter et leur empruntent
presque tous leurs éléments : nous les appelons _systèmes a
posteriori_.
{unquote}

When we last discussed these terms, someone (I forget who)
pointed out that Couturat and Leau's first category are
*not* a_priori in the epistemological sense either.  I agree.

Personally, I think it unfortunate that these two gentlemen
coined these terms for the two different sets of auxlang;
but they did so in 1903, and the usage is too well
established now - and the distinction between the two
different sets of auxlangs is IMO useful.  But ...

[snip]
>
> I'm sure you're right about the early historical origin
> of these terms as they apply to conlangs, but I think
> the restriction of the terms to vocab originates in
> auxlanging and has been extended to artlanging without
> further change of meaning. Speaking from memory, with no
> checking of veracity, I think such auxlang-centric
> pre-Conlang books as Andrew Large's _The artificial
> language movement_ used the terms in that sense,

I'd forgotten Large's book - and as I've long ago lost
interest in auxlangs, I'll probably never read it.  But if,
indeed, he did make that restriction in use, I think it "a
bad move."  It surely gets even further away from the terms'
epistemological origin.  I've always understood the terms in
auxlangs to be used in Couturat and Leau's sense.

[snip]

> Furthermore, there is a particular utility to this vocab
> origin distinction, ....

At this point we part company.  I've argued this in the past
and, as I wrote in an earlier email: "I'm not going to waste
time fighting the issue."

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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