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CONLANG  December 2015, Week 5

CONLANG December 2015, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Phonetic/Phonotactic/Word inventory of a musical conlang

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 30 Dec 2015 03:00:17 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (54 lines)

Thanks for your responses!  Sorry for delays; it's the season for them.  I hope it's not the case that, now that the Common Honey has been broken out, this is sent to the backburner, not to be retrieved.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:28:52 -0500, Jon Michael Swift <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hey Alex,
>
>I think I have made some headway, though mostly in designing experiments. Without going into too many details, right now I'm trying to develop a kernel that could be easily developed by others while still allowing the language to retain its shape.
>
>Here's my current thoughts on the issue. The basic phonology would allow for sufficient complexity. If you allow 24 basic tone classes which (in advanced forms) could stand for multiple phonemes (based on spelling A#/Bb) 

How would that "spelling" difference translate to a difference of realisation?  Are you using a temperament in which enharmonic pairs differ?

>and with different intonational derivations, even with that you have a lot of possibilities. I'm also going to use ornaments like trills and slides for additional phonemes, but let's focus on the tones for now.
>
>The problem there is the difficulty of learning and the potential for ugliness. Having to use quarter tones liberally and disregarding the relative distance of the phonemes in pitch space would leave you with a very disjunct and inharmonious process. This is what I really dislike about Solresol and why I really agreed with the earlier message about deriving vocabulary from song literature.

What I had been advocating was not to take it for granted that the _note_ should be the basic combinatory unit ("phoneme"; it's probably best not to even say "phoneme" this early in the game, much less "vowel" or "consonant").  Trying to recover musicality from there is a task of whittling down far far too vast a list of sequences to something manań£able.  I'd compare it e.g. to trying to craft your conscript by starting with all possible black-and-white images of such and such size and throwing out the unsuitable ones.

Deriving vocabulary from songs in the way Patrik suggested at least makes each word musical, but falls down at the junctures: just abruptly switching from one song to another will ruin musicality.  It might make a good source of borrowed words once you have a phonology, anyway.

>The problem with that is that the scope becomes too narrow if you only use natural musical patterns. There was a bit of discussion earlier about focusing on one mode or another. This is absolutely possible, and I think to a degree necessary to maintaining some of the aesthetic simplicity. At the same time, when you restrict to mode or raga type construction you are now restricted to between 5 and 9 notes in normal cases. There are melody groups that are more than fully chromatic (the blues comes to mind...with multiple spellings you have more than 12 phonemes).
>
>Then let's take the blues for example. It is a very common melody type with a large song repertoire, so a lot could be done with it. The cultural appropriation stuff notwithstanding, the other problem with blues or any other melody type is the phrase restriction. You could liken this to the phonotactics. While there are many notes available, they group very strongly into small phrases of 2-4 notes in length. These phrases have variations and complex elaborations, but in essence there are only 6 or so primary syllables that make up all the more complex stuff in blues melodic language. I don't have a good feeling about the vocabulary allowance of this (David pointed this out early on in my process)

I don't have a good feeling either.  But if I were the one trying to develop this feeling, I might take an approach which was more holistic even than this reduction into "syllables".  

I might start with a single line (or a passage of a couple lines, or whatever) of blues and start to systematically vary it in all the possible ways, so as to figure out all the possible minimal pairs in which it plays a part, or maybe all such minimal pairs that aren't too close to be distinguished from one another; perhaps some of these "minimal pairs" involve , to retain musicality or reinforce a subtle difference.  Then repeat this exercise for various other lines.  The result should be a rough-and-ready approximation to a paradigm of points of variation, and that would be the bedrock of your _phonology_.  Pulling out a system of (essentially) freely combinable units from this data can be a later stage.

[In what is arguably an extremised form of this contrast -- many novice conlangers, following some template or another, seem to get the idea that "phonology" means 'phoneme inventory', and stands in contrast to e.g. "phonotactics".  Not so!  You seem to commit this usage yourself in one of your messages following this one.]

>My proposed solution is to move towards a series of discourse-based micro languages. My current plan is to take a group of songs in a distinct melody group and focus on their most common topics. Let's say we develop a discourse around the style of Robert Johnson and the vocabulary is narrowly focused on women, drinking, traveling, and other themes he had in his lyrics. I could develop a vocab around just those topics, and then move to another discourse for other vocab.
>
>Given that Ravi Shankar claimed to know about 200 Ragas and there are numerous music cultures which offer complexity on the same order of magnitude, there is definitely enough melodic possibility just to accomplish my goal with melody alone. The problem comes up in corssing the discourses. You would have to have a lot of mode changes to accomodate all the vocab you developed. There are many types of music that have frequent mode shifts, so it is possible but I would need to create a sort of buffer to keep it from being too frequent.

This is an intriguing idea.  It would weld the musical feel to the subject matter in a much more undissociable way than I'd envisioned.  Does that constrain the speaker's artistic license?  (or, conversely, afford it more occasion to be shown off?)  

I've seen the idea of having subject-specialised vocabularies in other contexts as well, e.g. a taxonomic language where the common prefixal segment of the "active" branch of the tree was omissible as long as it remained active.  I'm not completely convinced it's workable outside of cooked examples, or a huge set of overlapping frames.  I wonder if there's any data out there on how much natural discourses indeed tend to draw from the same subject area of the dictionary.  

>Moss offers a good model for the solution to this. Their system doesn't have a set key or mode, but a relative movement around a primary tonal center. I've considered making nouns into mode-specific vocabulary and keeping verbs in the world of relative pitch. This would also allow you to exploit the relative consonance and dissonance of varying scale degrees.

I don't exactly follow this.

>Here's an example. Let's say I made a discourse with Gregorian mode 1 that focused on devotional themes. Then I made another discourse around Raga Multani, which focuses on military themes. If I wanted to cross vocabulary between the two, words which agree with the Gregorian nouns would be in the gregorian mode, and words which agree with the Military vocab would be in multani. The verbs could be made to center on a relatively stable tone in the scale and then define things like tense based on how they do or do not resolve the tension melody.
>
>I'm getting to thinking that designing an agreement system is going to be the most important part of the language. The melodic possibilities available to me are certainly enough to create a language of any complexity, but when you start crossing conventions from music that is separated by space or time, things can get awkward. I think over time central conventions could develop, but there would have to be a lot of repair mechanisms for making modes agree when there is too much complexity in in agreement.

Agreed.  And making these repair mechanisms feel phonological, i.e. governed by some sort of general rule as opposed to just instructions "do what is musically cogent" that require a good measure of musical genius to implement, strikes me as a particularly difficult part.
  
>At this point I think I need to do some experiments with this theory and see how it works. Is there anything glaringly bad about this idea that I've missed?

Not glaringly bad, not that I can tell now.  Rather just terra incognita, still awaiting you to set out from the overlook you're gazing out from now and give it a proper exploration.

Alex

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