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CONLANG  January 2016, Week 2

CONLANG January 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: How many noun classes do I have?

From:

Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 9 Jan 2016 12:13:26 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (141 lines)

Jeffrey,
Thank you. Actually, I think I do have an answer. And I am going back to my
vocabulary and looking at the patterns in it. It may be that all this stuff
(declension, pronoun, etc) simply gets noted in the dictionary with a short
explanation in the grammar.
-S

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Sylvia,
> I suspect that this topic has swerved from your original question. Did you
> ever get a satisfactory answer? Maybe the answer depends on how you define
> "noun class" -- but that's not very helpful. Probably you should simply do
> what you think is best in the description of your grammar, and trust that
> your judgment is sound (which it is, in my opinion).
> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Pete Bleackley <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised we've managed to discuss English gender for so long without
> > the term "vestigial" being mentioned. English pronoun assignment is the
> > last lingering trace of an otherwise lost 3—gender system. There's even
> one
> > semantically unpredictable gender assignment hanging on in there.
> >
> > Pete Bleackley
> > The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> > http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> > Emily Semantic Recommendation - https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 7:14 pm
> > Subject: Re: How many noun classes do I have?
> >
> > On 9 Jan 2016 16:23, "David McCann" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:42:52 +0000
> > > And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Genders are classes (of noun) that it is necessary for the grammar to
> > > > recognize. Grammatical behaviour that is fully predictable from
> > > > semantics is not necessary for the grammar to recognize. The rules of
> > > > grammar need specify only what is not fully predictable.
> > >
> > > If you want to use that definition, that's up to you, just as it's up
> > > to you if you don't want to recognise gender in English. You have
> > > Wikipedia on your side, for what it's worth. But one has to remember
> > > that there is no one, inevitable way to describe any language.
> >
> > Nevertheless, principles of reason do lead inevitably from premises to
> > conclusion. So differing conclusions are indicative of differing premises
> > or deviation from reason. The choice of premises too has its own rational
> > basis. For more on premises, see my final paragraph below.
> >
> > > One only has to look at the total disagreement among linguists
> regarding
> > the
> > > English vowel system!
> >
> > It's not obvious to me what you have in mind here, and I'd like to know,
> > but it'd be too off-topic for the list.
> >
> > > As an amateur, who should I believe?
> >
> > Being an amateur is neither here nor there. If you're capable of
> > understanding the issues and arguments, look to your own judgement, not
> to
> > authority. If, due to limited knowledge of the relevant field, one is not
> > capable of understanding the issues and arguments, then there's little
> > alternative than to look to authority, but that should only be done
> > diffidently and with the awareness that the attempt to weigh authorities
> > may reduce you to the foolish lengths of comparing job titles and JSTOR
> > items... Anyway, the point is that you can't settle a point of
> disagreement
> > by trading authorities; you settle it through reasoned argument.
> >
> > > Frankly, when you start accusing some-one of
> > > "laxity, facility, and superficiality" in a book you haven't
> > > actually read, you protest too much.
> >
> > If you reread what I wrote, you should notice that I made no such
> > accusation. I will mildly remonstrate with you at this misrepresentation
> of
> > yours, but I acknowledge it to be, tho objectionable, probably an
> innocent
> > accident of the haste with which we read and write our email.
> >
> > > How is grammar affected by gender? By agreement. And what is the
> > > least amount of agreement ever found? In the pronoun. It seems to me
> > > that to say that English and Tamil, with three pronouns, are genderless
> > > like Chinese, with one, because their gender is semantically based, is
> > > counter-intuitive.
> >
> > I haven't understood this enough to see what is counterintuitive. English
> > has agreement based on Number and Person, which, being not fully
> > predictable from meaning, are both grammatical categories. But there's no
> > gender agreement or any other rule of grammar that must invoke gender.
> Yes,
> > there is a gender-like semantic distinction among the pronouns, but of
> > course there are semantic distinctions among pretty much all English
> words;
> > why would we want to single out the semantic distinction between three
> > particular words and make a grammatical category of it?
> >
> > Let me come at this a different way. There is a key distinction between a
> > 'structuralist' stating that the rules defining Language X must contain
> > Category Y, and a 'typologist' labelling as Y some observable feature or
> > pattern that recurs across languages and stating that Language X has
> > feature Y. Each is legitimate, but they're very different and shouldn't
> be
> > seen as contradictory. While I argue that the structuralist statement
> that
> > English lacks gender (i.e. need recognize no such grammatical category)
> is
> > correct, that does not preclude a typologist labelling as 'gender' a
> > (typically, sex-based) semantic distinction among pronouns and then
> > correctly observing that English has 'gender'. My own predilections are
> > such that if a fellow conlanger asks how many genders their conlang has,
> I
> > unreflectingly assume they're seeking the structuralist answer; but I do
> > recognize, at least now at this stage of our discussion, that they may be
> > seeking the typologist answer or that at any rate another conlanger might
> > reasonably think it apposite to give the typologist answer. I gather that
> > you prefer typologist answers; in that case, given a suitable typologist
> > definition of 'gender', I will readily concur that English has three.
> >
> > --And.
> >
>



-- 
Sylvia Sotomayor

The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

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