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CONLANG  January 2016, Week 4

CONLANG January 2016, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Applicative Issues

From:

J S Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:31:31 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:19:09 +0100, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 26 January 2016 at 14:51, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >According to RMWD@BLT, *canonical* applicatives redefine an existing
>> >peripheral argument (location, instrument, comitative, goal, recipient)
>> >as a patient/object, with language-dependent effects on the original
>> >patient/object if any. If the valency changes and that affects the
>> >subject, that is due to the valency change, not the applicative. A
>> >nominative stays a nominative and an absolutive changes to an ergative
>> >on going from intransitive to transitive for instance.
>>
>> That contradicts DM (which puts applicatives under Valency Increasing),
>> and some articles I've read.
>>
>I doubt it. All definitions of applicatives I've seen clearly mention that
>they always leave the subject alone. That's what makes them distinct from
>valency-increasing *voices* like the causative. And while they *can* be
>valency-changing (for instance, turning intransitive verbs into transitive
>verbs by giving them objects), they don't have to be (in many languages,
>applicatives do not turn a transitive verb ditransitive -although some do,
>and for others it can be ambiguous due to the specific language's grammar-.
>Rather, they keep it transitive but change the semantic role of its object.
>The original object is then usually omitted or reintroduced via an oblique
>construction).

I was talking about valency increasing, not the subject. That *definitely* contradicts DM. I've looked at it. If you think DM is wrong, say so, but don't accuse me!

>So the valency change is not the main point of applicatives, their messing
>with a verb's object slot (possibly giving them one first if they didn't
>have one before) is.
>
>> >What he calls "quasi-applicatives" is when there is no possibility for
>> >an existing peripheral argument, and the applicative is the only way to
>> >connect the argument to a verb.
>> >
>> >> Here's the odd thing: when the instrumental applicative is used on a
>> >> transitive verb and the X argument is a person,
>> >
>> >Which type of instrumental applicative? (I'll summarize the types of
>> >applicatives in the book when I get home.)
>>
>> I didn't know there were different types of instrumental. (TIA)
>>
>>According to BLT, applicatives don't mess with the agent/subject, so if
>> >your stuff does that, you don't have applicatives but something new,
>> >nice and shiny.
>> >
>> >
>> >t.
>>
>> Well, they don't always affect the agent, just in one special case.
>>
>That's enough to make that special case "not really an applicative", and
>you'll need a good reason to still classify it among applicatives (there
>are plenty of valency-increasing operations that are not applicatives, like
>the causative I mentioned above, and they are simply called "voices", so
>it's not as if "applicative" is the only linguistic term you can choose
>from).

So what term do you think I should use instead? It appears in the same slot as the applicatives, not causatives, and acts like one with most kinds of arguments.

>--
>Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
>President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)
>
>Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>Personal Tumblr: http://christophoronomicon.tumblr.com/

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