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CONLANG  January 2016, Week 4

CONLANG January 2016, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Latin chocolate (was:: THEORY: Yes-no Or Questions)

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:25:28 -0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

2016-01-27 13:06 GMT-02:00 Guilherme Holzmann <[log in to unmask]>:

> In my lect at least, such disputes, at least the ones you mentioned, are
> pretty much nonexistent. If I ever came across written 'lêiser' and 'sáite',


Those forms are advocated by language purists*, but most people just uses
the loanwords in the original form. Here's a example of someone saying that
we shouldn't use "laser" but "lêiser" instead in Portuguese:

http://dicionarioegramatica.com.br/2016/01/15/em-portugues-leiser-nao-laser/

*: I'm not sure this is "language purism", because the words keep being
loanwords in these forms (sáite, lêiser), but so they keep orthographic
rules coherent.

which so far I haven't, they'd be dismissed as either nonstandard or
> European Portuguese (after 'electrão' I don't doubt any mischief  may
> happen to loanwords). 'link' and 'ligação' are definitely not synonymous,


Well, this Wikipédia page has "editar ligações" and "ligações externas" in
it:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicismo

and 'mussarela' is an older, already established, loan.


That's what I thought too, judging by what I saw in most markets, but after
that someone showed me that the form present in dictionaries is "muçarela"
(and just now I see "mozarela" too):

http://www.priberam.pt/dlpo/mu%C3%A7arela
http://www.priberam.pt/dlpo/mozarela


> I've seen 'mozzarela' used to refer exclusively to buffalo cheese, though.
>
>
I won't be surprised if "lêiser" and "sáite" become standard. Portuguese
has a long tradition of accommodating loanwords after some time using the
original foreign words: "futebol" (football), "abajur" (abat-jour),
"gangue" (gang), even "farmácia" from Portuguese-itself "pharmacia", etc.


http://www12.senado.leg.br/manualdecomunicacao/redacao-e-estilo/estilo/lista-de-palavras-que-ja-foram-aportuguesadas


Até mais!

Leonardo



> -----Mensagem Original-----
> De: "Leonardo Castro" <[log in to unmask]>
> Enviada em: ‎27/‎01/‎2016 10:39
> Para: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> Assunto: Re: Latin chocolate (was:: THEORY: Yes-no Or Questions)
>
> The sokolata-chocolatum dispute shows that Latin is alive. I note similar
> disputes in Portuguese regarding loanwords.
>
> * laser or lêiser
> * site or sáite
> * link or ligação
> * mozzarella, mozarela, mussarela or muçarela
>
> Interesting cases are "café" (coffee) and "chá" (tea). Portuguese "café"
> was borrowed from French [1] with unchanged acute accent, although it has
> contrary functions in French and Portuguese, so that the word is pronounced
> differently. Portuguese "chá" is written exactly the same as in Mandarin in
> Pinyin, from which it derives [2], including the acute accent again. The
> accent refers to a tone in Mandarin, but it's also mandatory in Portuguese
> for an unrelated reason. A noun "cha", without an acute accent, just
> couldn't exist in Portuguese.
>
> [1]: http://www.priberam.pt/dlpo/caf%C3%A9
> [2]: http://www.priberam.pt/dlpo/ch%C3%A1
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
> 2016-01-25 16:03 GMT-02:00 Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > For the record, I know that Latin is still in use and was not surprised
> to
> > find it has a word for chocolate; even Klingon has a (monosyllabic!) word
> > for chocolate, and it is not native to their planet. :)
> >
> > Given the history of Latin, though, I was curious about the path taken by
> > new words, especially for terms that were introduced well before modern
> > times but still well after its heyday as a European lingua franca.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:12 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/01/2016 16:22, David McCann wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 08:33:06 -0500 "Mark J. Reed" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> OT, but I assume chocolate was unknown to the Romans.
> > >>> Does "socolata"  come from a time when Latin was still
> > >>>  in active use in European writing, or is it a
> > >>> back-formation from the romlangs?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I believe the usual word in modern Latin is
> > >> "chocolatum".
> > >>
> > >
> > > Ach y fi!  That's just English with a Latin ending!
> > >
> > > _ch_ in Latin originally represented ancient Greek χ [kʰ].
> > > It came to be used in words like _pulcher_ (beautiful),
> > > _sepulchrum_ (tomb) which had been spelled with the _h_ -
> > > but the reason why is obscure.  In medieval Latin we come
> > > across Classical _mihi_ and _nihil_ spelled _michi_ and
> > > _nichil_ where _ch_ represented [k] (whereas in Medieval
> > > Latin _c_ before _i_ or _e_ had a 'soft' sound).
> > >
> > > But _ch_ was (and is) [kʰ] or [k].  If you wanted to have
> > > initial [tʃ] then _ciocolat-- would be the form, using
> > > modern Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin.
> > >
> > > The form _socoláta_ (noun feminine) is obviously a Latinized
> > > version of the (modern) Greek σοκολάτα, thus continuing a
> > > practice begun long ago by the Romans  :)
> > >
> > > Latin is, of course, still in use: descriptions of newly
> > >>  discovered plants are only accepted if written in Latin,
> > >>  an attempt to substitute English having been rejected a
> > >>  few years ago.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Euge!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ray
> > > ==================================
> > > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> > > ==================================
> > > "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
> > > wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> > > [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> > > "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> > > will always interfere with language".
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> >
>

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December 2004, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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