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CONLANG  February 2016, Week 1

CONLANG February 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: All the words!

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 5 Feb 2016 11:43:38 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (179 lines)

Hi,

On 04/02/2016 20:41, Matthew Henke wrote:
> Hi Listserv world.
[snip]

> If we had access to all the written documents of a
> language (say an alien culture broadcasted it to us),
> and we knew NOTHING about that culture or any of the
> words in it, then could we figure out what it meant?

No.  If we know _nothing_ about the culture then the both
the script and the language are completely unknown.  With
both unknowns the task is not possible as examples like the
Indus Valley script, Phaistos Disk, the Elamite scripts,
Rongorango and many others - despite the fact that numerous
people have claimed to have 'deciphered' them   :)

> I suppose the Rosetta Stone will come up,

The Rosetta Stone will have relevance only if our aliens had
thoughtfully provided a translation or part translation in a
known language.  The importance of the Rosetta in
deciphering ancient Egyptian was that the text was written
in three scripts: Hieroglyphic, Hieratic and Greek.
Fortunately the latter was also in the Greek language!

It also helped that Coptic, a liturgical language still used
by Coptic Christians, is derived from ancient Egyptian.

So the Rosetta Stone provided:
- two inscriptions in undeciphered scripts of a language
with a known cognate;
- a translation of the undeciphered texts in a known
language, i.e. Greek.

If all we had were the written documents of the unknown
language in an unknown script, then we have nothing
comparable to the Rosetta Stone.  If, on the other hand, our
aliens had thoughtfully provided a translation ....  ;)

> but I mean with all our present day computing power
> thrown at the question too.

Still no - however ....

On 04/02/2016 21:09, Logan Kearsley wrote:
[snip]
> Depends on what that culture decided to record in
> writing. "All of the written documents of a language"
> tells us pretty much nothing useful about what the
> contents of those documents might be, *especially* if we
>  know nothing else about the culture in question
> previously.

Exactly! But ...

> .... we could do some statistical analysis on what
> sequences of symbols

Yep - that's how we could throw our present day computer
power at it - by doing statistical analyses: identifying
symbol frequencies, patterns of symbol sequences etc.  This
is what decipherers have done in the past when confronted
with similar problems.  The only thing the computer would do
would be to considerably speed up the different analyses and
ensure greater accuracy than a human might achieve doing the
same without a computer.

It would provide very useful groundwork for future
decipherers when more information is known; but of itself,
it would not solve the problem, as we see with undeciphered
texts that we already possess.

If, as Krista and Logan suggest, our aliens had provided
pictures and or mathematical/scientific formulae (which we
recognized as such), we might be able to make some
intelligent guesses as to the possible meaning of some of
these sequences.

This is basically the way that Linear B was eventually
deciphered.  The statistical work was done laboriously and
by hand by Alice Kober and others and later by Michael
Ventris.  Alice Kober had noticed that some words had common
roots and suffixes, in  particular there were a series of
root words which all showed the same three different sets of
suffixes. These were nicknamed 'Kober Triplets'.

Ventris continued statistical analyses, drawing up his
famous since the script appeared to be a syllabary.  it was
also clear from symbols were fairly obviously indicted
numbers that we were probably dealing with book-keeping records.

Ventris had the happy guess that the root words of the Kober
Triplets were place names, indicating the origin or
destination of goods.  Patiently, through trial and error,
he matched them up with known ancient Cretan place names and
then became surprised to see that the phonetic values he had
obtained seem to give meaning to other words if they were
very ancient Greek.  I say he was surprised because like
most people of the time Ventris had assumed the language
would *not* be any form of Greek!

Fortunately, Dr John Chadwick of Cambridge University took
these findings seriously and together with Ventris
translated many of the Linear B inscriptions, showing the
language to be a very early form of Greek now known as
Mycenaean Greek.  But their translations were met with a
great deal of skepticism from the academic world.  It was
not until the discovery of similar documents, hitherto
unknown, from Pylos on the Greek mainland and that we could
actually read these documents using their phonetic values
that the Ventris-Chadwick decipherment became generally
(though not universally) accepted.

In other words, while computer power is a very useful tool
for statistical analysis of the text, by itself it is not
enough to enable a decipherment.

As the decipherment of Linear B shows, we need other clues
as Krista and Logan have said.  In the case of Linear B, we
had symbols which clearly indicated numbers (cf. dots on a
dice, arrangement of symbols on playing cards etc), and
other indications that the texts were probably clerks'
records of goods sent and/or received. We also knew the
names of places that might occur in these records and, when
as a result of all this careful work, someone started to see
ordinary words in something that looked like a known
language, i.e. Greek, the decipherment was possible.

But even if we did have pictures, formulae or whatever to
help, unless the language proved to be related to a known
language we would still have problems.  Work on deciphering
  Etruscan shows this.  The Etruscan script is actually a
form of ancient western Greek alphabet so we have a rough
idea what the language sounded like.  As most of the
inscriptions are funerary, we have an idea of the context.
But the language is not (despite some claims) obviously
related to any other known language, and there are still
many problems, even though with patient and careful analyses
the texts are gradually yielding up all their meanings.

But, as the example of Linear B shows, even if by using
computer analysis and doing a lot of patient detective work
you did happen to come up with a more or less correct
decipherment, you would find a good deal of skepticism -
your work would be treated as an interesting hypothesis
which might be correct by some or as downright crankiness by
others.  You would be hoping that a discovery would soon by
made of more of this language and that your decipherment
enabled it to be read   :)
--------------------------------------------------------

On 05/02/2016 00:43, Matthew George wrote:
> If a primer were included in the texts - like that
> described in Carl Sagan's *Contact* - we might be able
> to figure out what the symbols meant. Otherwise, no,

I'm a bit skeptical whether a primer itself would be
sufficient.  But as I have not read Carl Sagan's "Contract",
I don't know how many clues, like the ones I've mentioned
above, might be included.  But I think you are quite right
to say that such a primer, even giving useful clues, would
only mean we *might* be able to figure what the symbols mean.

But, in the absence, of any extra-linguistic clues, the
answer, as you say, is "no."

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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