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CONLANG  February 2016, Week 1

CONLANG February 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Conscripting: my questions about Glagolitic

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 7 Feb 2016 14:47:34 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (125 lines)

On 06/02/2016 18:43, Matthew George wrote:
> If it was meant to help establish a distinct identity for
> the Slavs,

But it wasn't, was it?  It was a tool used by the brothers
Methodius and Cyril to spread the Christian Gospel in
Moravia and among the south west Slavs. The fact that it
eventually fell out of use except among the Croats where it
became a mark of their ethnicity and Catholic Christianity
as opposed to the Cyrillic using Orthodox Slavs came much later.

The origin of the Glagolitic script is obscure.  It is only
one tradition that ascribes its invention to the two
brothers; another tradition ascribes it to St Jerome.  I
think it far more likely that Methodius and Cyril simply
adapted an already existing writing system they found used
in the area they were evangelizing.

> then I don't understand why it wasn't made in such a way
>  that it would be easy for people to actually use
> everyday.

Er, sort of because printing had not been invented and every
book had to be copied by hand - so I do not think there
would have been much opportunity for most of the Slav
peoples in 9th century Balkans to use it in everyday life!
Also, of course, there were no schools in which they could
learn.  I have no doubt that the two brothers did their own
education and taught a small number in the various Christian
communities they established as scriptures got copied by hand.

> My prior experience with overly-complicated systems (like
> Aztec numerals) suggests that it's often chosen to
> prevent people from picking up on it, restricting the
> knowledge only to trained elites.

I hardly call Glagolitic overly-complicated - it's a
(phonemic) alphabet, when all's said and done.  OK the
letters take a bit writing, but that's all.

Current Japanese writing of the 21st century is *far more
complicated* - but that doesn't prevent the Japanese having
a high rate of literacy (96.7%).  It is universal schooling
and means of mass-producing written text that makes all the
difference.
[snip]
-------------------------------------------------------------

On 07/02/2016 03:31, Siva Kalyan wrote:
>> On 7 Feb 2016, at 5:43 AM, Matthew George wrote:
>>
>> Why didn't they just use Greek script, with a few
>> simple introduced symbols for any extra sounds?  It
>> would have the added advantage that anyone who learned
>>  the system would be able to sound out Greek writing,
>> making learning it easier.
>
> That sounds a lot like Cyrillic!

It *is* Cyrillic!   :-)

That's precisely what they did in evangelizing the Slavs
further north and east.  The extra signs that Matthew
mentions were (for the most part) adopted from the Hebrew 
script.

The invention of the Cyrillic alphabet is, of course,
ascribed to St Cyril himself.  So are we to assume it was
his brother Methodius who kept the Glagolithic going?  Well, no.

Not only is the origin of the Glagolithic obscure and
controversial, the relationship (if any) between Glagolithic
and Cyrillic is also unclear and controversial.

It seems to me that two errors, at least, have crept into
this thread:
- assuming certain ancient legends to be fact, and not
actually looking at historic evidence;
- assuming availability of reading material and
opportunities of learning in 9th century were not dissimilar
from our contemporary world.
---------------------------------------------------------

On 03/02/2016 12:35, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
[snip]

> I do not think that simplicity or straightforwardness are
> requirements for a script. As long as there is a cultural
> base, there are almost no limits to the complexity of a
> script.

Amen!!  Spot on!

> And while it may seem to us that it is simplicity that
> makes a good script, I think that is just our own
> cultural background, coming from a culture with almost
> universal literacy

Quite so.  Methinks, some have be guilty of anachronism.
Script, like language, is part and parcel of the cultural
milieu in which it develops and is used.

> (though at a closer look, the complexity of English
> orthography is rather at odds with simplicity).

  	:)

Also, as I mentioned, Japanese, with its *thousands* of
kanji symbols, supplemented by the katakana and hiragana
syllabaries shows that:
(a) "[a]s long as there is a cultural base, there are almost
no limits to the complexity of a script" and
(b) complexity itself is no barrier to a high rate of literacy.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigenen Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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