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CONLANG  February 2016, Week 4

CONLANG February 2016, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The ultimate language construction challenge

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:40:30 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (61 lines)

I only just now understood the subject line of this thread.
It's "The ultimate language-construction challenge", and not "The
ultimate-language construction challenge".

stevo

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 3:35 AM, Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> In fact my paper proves that what Chomsky calls "the space of possible
> languages" is logically finite [without the presence of a biological UG].
> It is also discussed in what particular way the space of all languages is
> infinite, and the answer is basically, it's infinite in a trivial way.
>
> Why I come here for counterarguments… like I said I want certainty because
> it's a stressful task. Furthermore, in philosophy the burden of proof works
> in the way that as I have a stronger argument, I should have the upper
> hand. But in the real world, science is based on consensus ‒ and power
> which I don't have. That's why the opposing side can ask me to provide
> evidence for non-existence, and if I don't deliver, they'll just say I
> haven't proven anything. But if a lot of people agree there simply can't be
> any evidence for my opponent, that can turn the table just the right amount.
>
> Anyway, the argument here is not moving forward as people missed some of
> the point. I did mention "any nonhuman structure", but this should be
> understood against the background of the paper which deals with
> "fundamental grammars". The shape of the space of possible grammars is
> discussed first, and on page 3 (http://lingbuzz.auf.net/lingbuzz/002821)
> there's a graph of how language is structured (also And note there are six
> further Chomsky references on the list).
>
> We should be looking at the underlying structures and see if there's
> somehow a way to avoid what *seems* obvious because maybe it's not and
> we're just fooled by our conventional thinking. I think Fith is not going
> to do it because it has nouns, adjectives, verbs etc. You should probably
> dig deeper, but I could be mistaken here.
>
> All languages add something to a common structure, that's no dispute. For
> instance Lojban has the fa fe fi fo fu series of core argument order
> assigning particles. Let's assume no natlang has this, so it's an "alien"
> structure. However, it's not a fundamental structure. You can have a
> functional "Lojban minus" with just the default argument order which has up
> to five arguments. Natlangs I think have up to four, English has up to
> three. Here you see how the main structure builds on natlangs.
>
> However, you can't have the argument assigning particles without the core
> arguments because they would be meaningless. That's why they are not
> fundamental, but in contrast something original which adds to a common
> structure.
>
> In Fith, the stack operators are likewise interesting. But you can't have
> the stack operators without the stack. So they again build on a common
> structure. BTW the end operators e, i, o, u are obviously borrowed from
> natlang punctuation. They are however not necessary for the functionality
> of the grammar, even in terms of syntactic unambiguity, because the
> verb-last structure already tells you where the utterance ends.
>
> So, I really think this is the ultimate language construction challenge.
> We don't know if it's possible or not.
>

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