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CONLANG  February 2016, Week 5

CONLANG February 2016, Week 5

Subject:

Re: The ultimate language construction challenge

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Feb 2016 13:34:55 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (125 lines)

On 29 Feb 2016 12:29, "Patrik Austin" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > To anybody reading the discussion when paaS was first introduced, it was
> clear that it was a linearized encoding of PAS.
>
> You're being esoteric again as has unfortunately become customary in
engelanging discussion. Anyone expressing a different idea is quickly
rejected with a vague reference to the Lore.

I'm reasonably willing to have a go at explaining stuff if you tell me you
don't understand it. I'm not willing to singlehandedly take responsibility
for your education by writing you bespoke textbooks.

I don't know which phrase you find esoteric. From my perspective none of
them are, so I rely on you to point out what it is that you don't
understand (ideally after you've shown good faith by making an independent
effort to understand first).

> But the only rational reason for the obscurity is uncertainty of the
truth of the matter... part of which is that I'm the one who had to provide
the actual trees and graphs for your argument while on your side it's been
considered unnecessary to provide any evidence as you're already well aware
of being right.

I have not noticed you challenge the claim that PAS is necessary and
sufficient for representing the structure of propositional thought. Before
challenging the claim you need to understand it. Then to challenge it, you
can either adduce something simpler than PAS that nevertheless does the job
(highly unlikely, bordering on inconceivable, but a major discovery if
possible, and you will doubtless flatter yourself that you can do this) or
adduce some proposition for which PAS seems inadequate for capturing the
structure of, and argue that PAS is too simple for the job.

> > I contend that
> "semantically an all-noun language" is gibberish: parts of speech are
> defined neither semantically nor universally.
>
> No you don't. You need to prove your point.

The burden of proof is on those who claim there to be notionalist or
universal definitions.

> Here's the quick counterevidence:
> https://ufal.mff.cuni.cz/pdt2.0/doc/manuals/en/t-layer/html/ch05s02.html

Are you saying that you espouse a theory of universal notionalist
categories and that Prague Dependency Grammar is it?

If you are and if that's somehow crucial to your thinking, and it turns out
that you want to say that in PAS all predicates are nouns in terms of this
theory, then we can discuss that.

> > The English is a gloss, not a definition. The English glosses are nouns
> because it's in the nominal vocabulary that the simplest glosses are to be
> found in English. It's interesting to ask why that is: a couple of reasons
> are that the English nominal vocabulary is far bigger than the verbal and
> adjectival and that verbs tend to have dynamic meanings inappropriate for
> the glosses.
>
> However your example is excellent in proving my point that it can be done
with just nouns. Everything you say is perfectly in line with argument.
Where's your counterargument?

You are making an argument about how to gloss things in English? Why? What
is that relevant to?

>
> > The actual semantics was that p is a predicate and a2 an event argument.
>
> What does that mean? a2 – is that the second a if the actual layout is
apaS, top-down? In the actual structure, e.g. figure 12 in
http://lingbuzz.auf.net/lingbuzz/002821 any 'a' (node) can function as an
a1 as well as an a2, simultaneously. If one is an event argument, does that
mean that the other one is not?

paaS presupposed a PAS in which all predicates are binary and (typically)
asymmetrical. The asymmetry is encoded by means of linear order. In a graph
you represent it by making edges arrows.

To understand how the universally binary PAS represents propositions, it is
necessary to understand that at least one argument is an event argument.

Note, by the way, that universally binary PAS was introduced into
discussion because it affords the simplest rules for a linearized notation,
at a time when you were trying to enquire into the simplest grammars that
use a symbol string to encode propositional meaning.

> Looking at such event arguments, many people here have proven their
skills in English so proficient they think paaS (or any other grammar we're
discussing) is actually English. I'm sure these people will soon raise
their hand to ask you how come "I", "read" and "-" (for "negative") are all
in the same semantic category... But "want" and "read" are placed in
different ones?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.

> > Now you may well ask for further explanation about what predicates and
> event arguments are, but that would be a question about PAS, the structure
> of propositional thought, rather than about paaS, a maximally simple
> encoding of PAS.
>
> Of course. I once read a book about Tao. The first chapter defined what
"Tao" means. After a long and winding pondering the definition was it's
actually that which can't be defined. Isn't that exactly what PAS is, at
least to the point where a critical scrutiny is no longer possible?

No. It's standardly accepted in linguistics and philosophy, and results,
through convergent thinking, from trying to find the simplest possible
structural system that is sufficient for the task, and is open to
'empirical' challenge in the way I described above, and has a nature
susceptible to philosophical investigation and elucidation.

Nobody's asking you to accept PAS uncritically. What I've always said to
you is that PAS is the answer that people who have thought about this stuff
before you have come up with. You can try to improve on it, tho I have
warned that it is very unlikely to be a successful use of your energies.
What I have no sympathy for is that because you haven't managed to
understand what PAS is, you denounce it as nonsense and proclaim yourself
the originator of its rightful heir to the throne of truth; that is crank
behaviour, and the only thing that keeps me in the discussion is my
unwillingness to cede to cranks this small area of intellectual enquiry
where conlanging and linguistics overlap.

--And.

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