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CONLANG  March 2016, Week 2

CONLANG March 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Headlessness

From:

Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:15:37 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

I am now curious whether that are any natlangs whose grammar has
"obligatory dispossession of inalienably possessed nouns". The only natlang
I know which marks alienability, Hawaiian, does not "dispossess" the nouns.
Even if you sell your house (marked as inalienable on the possessive
particle, because in traditional Hawaiian culture, houses/homesteads could
not be sold; they passed from father to son/heir; but today one can indeed
sell a house), there is no change in the marking. A house is syntactically
inalienable always, even though it may be semantically alienable. It seems
that the dispossession of an inalienably possessed object would be a rather
rare occurrence (how many times can you lose your head?). That is why I am
curious if any natlangs do this.
Jeffrey


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 14 March 2016 at 02:41, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > That second example is ambiguous. All it says is that one is lacking a
> > dispossessed head: it doesn't say WHOSE dispossessed head one is lacking.
> >
> >
> In my new language Haotyétpi, which also has obligatory possessed nouns (I
> call them "inalienably possessed nouns"), one cannot make such a noun
> dispossessed. The closest one can do (and indeed does) is to mark the
> possessor as third person indefinite ("something's/someone's"), to indicate
> that the possessor is irrelevant/unknown.
>
> So "a pile of heads" in Haotyétpi would probably be translated as _ossén
> coré_: "a great many heads" (without the indefinite possessive suffix
> _-(s)e_, the phrase would become _ossén cór_: "a great many of their
> heads", implying possessors that have already been mentioned or are known
> by context). One could also say _yussú coré_: "many heads", but using
> _yussú_ implies that one can still easily count how many heads there are,
> which, to me at least, is not quite what one means when they say "a pile of
> heads". _Ossén_ implies that something that is normally countable might as
> well be uncountable, due to sheer number (_yussú kár_ is just "many
> people". _Ossén kár_ is "a sea of people, a large crowd).
>
> As for "headless" or "lacking a head", there are various ways to handle
> that. _Coré saprú_ means "without someone's head", from the verb _sáp_: "to
> lack" together with the adverbial suffix _-ru_: "while ...+ing". It
> implies, naturally, that the person is normally walking around with some
> head hanging from their belt, and they're missing it. If they were missing
> their own head, _cór saprú_: "without his/her/their head" would do it,
> although it would be ambiguous between whether one is missing their own
> head or somebody else's head, who's known from context or has been
> mentioned before (as in English basically). If you really want to say
> "headless, without one's own head", the easiest way would be to use the
> verb _corsáp_: "to be headless, to lack one's head", formed by noun
> incorporation.
>
> And yes, talking about piles of heads and headless beings is quite
> important indeed :P.
>
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Mar 13, 2016, at 6:17 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I am working on a grammar for a new language (looks a bit like the
> > > previous one) and I just found myself writing: "Obligatorily possessed
> > > nouns can become dispossessed by appending =yo to the noun, as in
> > > pe=lene sono=yo (COLL=pile head=dispossessed) ‘a pile of heads’. An
> > > obligatorily possessed noun must first be dispossessed before it can
> > > be lacking: sono=yo=tepe (head=dispossessed=lacking) ‘without a
> > > head’." because it is so very important to be able to talk about
> > > headless beings and piles of heads. :-)
> > >
> > > -S
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sylvia Sotomayor
> > >
> > > The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
> President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)
>
> Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> Personal Tumblr: http://christophoronomicon.tumblr.com/
>

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