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CONLANG  March 2016, Week 2

CONLANG March 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Engelang animation video

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Mar 2016 07:54:14 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

>>> Figure 14 shows abaS, not aS.
>
>> It's a linear structure, that's the point.

> There is an essential difference between a list of single elements and a 
list of triads.

As defined by the grammar.

> Your abaS grammar is better than aS, because it can describe a structure 
(list of triads: node, parent node and the type of their relation) which 
(although does not describe a naturalistic language) can be converted to 
a tree.

abaS is a model within aS. All abaS structures are also aS structures. The video shows you how to convert both to a tree.

> It says: "Every word (except of the root (head) of the sentence) is 
dependent on another word, and there are several types of relations to 
the parent word (marked by grammatical morphemes)."

Yes, morphemic tagging is something you can do a lot with.

> But even this grammar still is not entirely equivalent to a naturalistic 
grammar, because it does not say that there are two levels:
1) the level of clauses, whose heads are verbs, on which depend several 
phrases in different cases (except of genitive (and of vocative, which 
stays outside of a sentence));
2) the level of phrases, whose heads are substantives, on which depend 
several adjectives or genitives.

It looks to me that you’re describing a phrase structure grammar (PSG). It’s not a naturalistic grammar, but a tool among others to analyse language. BTW how do you know that heads of natlang clauses must be verbs, as many clauses don’t even have a verb? Also, would you say natlangs have concrete heads, or rather that heads are part of a possible interpretation?

> Although such list of triads can contain enough information to be 
converted into a naturalistic language, it itself is not a 
human-friendly language. A system based of pairs would be even more 
human-unfriendly.

Maybe, but this is engelanging, not natlanging... so I take it you’re trying to tell me I’m doing an excellent job :)

> (BTW, there is another layer of a human language: extra edges expressed 
by endophoric and relative pronouns.)

Done that... e.g. in the video.

>> First let's take a CKY parse for the sentence.

...

> For that input, it draws the same thing which is entered, only places 
the pairs vertically instead of horizontally, and colors them.

I said: that’s the parse of the sentence! There’s no online CKY/CYK parser that I’m aware of. But here’s the grammar for your parser of choice:

S -> A
A -> want-event | agent1 | i-person | want-event | patient1 | read-event | agent2 | anyone-person | patient 2 | book | possessor | polarity | negation | carelessness

And here’s the test sentence: 
want-event agent1 i-person want-event patient1 read-event agent2 anyone-person read-event patient2 book possessor i-person want-event polarity negation read-event manner carelessness

>> graph{
> want_event--agent1--i_person;
> want_event--patient1--read_event--patient2--book--i_person;
> read_event--agent2--anyone_person;
> want_event--polarity--negation;
> read_event--manner--carelessness;
> }

>> So you see what we have here in this message are just word lists of different length.
>> But it's just as difficult to see how come the graph is actually just a list,

> A list of triads (or rather quads, because there is also that number (or 
other ID) which identifies nodes with the same name), not a list of 
elements without an internal structure.

Of course it’s not a list without structure. But that structure depends on its definition. Remember that ‘list’ is your word, not mine, so I suppose it’s up to you what you mean by it. I’m saying you can create that particular graph (or any other) by just putting nouns one after another. If you mean I can’t because there are e.g. "--" symbols, you should think whether it would be equally computational to make a parser which assumes that relation without having to manually add the symbols?

Note that And is also describing his grammar as a way of ID'ing unique and non-unique values which build up the graph. I don't think it was never any debate whether this is allowed or not, but _maybe_, whether it is possible or not, and by now I think it's quite well proven possible (otherwise the already demonstrated graphs couldn't possibly exist). There are two sides here, and both are basing their argument on this (conventional) graph description method, so I don't really see much point questioning it.

What's more important to see is that the structure describes triads only because the chosen graph was based on triads. All possible graphs are not based on triads.

Here's the same structure without one single triad in the command: 

graph{
want_event;
want_event--agent1;
agent1--i_person;
want_event--patient1--read_event--patient2--book--possessor--i_person;
read_event--agent2;
agent2--anyone_person;
anyone_person;
want_event--polarity;
polarity--negation;
read_event--manner;
manner--carelessness;
manner;
}

And here's a graph that is not based on triads:

graph{
event1--want--polarity--negation;
want--agent--i_person;
want--patient--event2--read--book_patient--possessor--i_person;
read--anyone_person_agent;
read--negligence_manner;
}

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