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CONLANG  March 2016, Week 2

CONLANG March 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Engelang animation video

From:

"A. da Mek" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:03:16 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (148 lines)

13.3.2016 v 11:54 Patrik Austin wrote
> abaS is a model within aS. All abaS structures are also aS structures.

The cat is an animal. The mouse is an animal. So the sentence "The cat 
ate a mouse" implies "The animal ate an animal." But from the sentence 
"The animal ate an animal" you can not (without an extra information, 
not contained in it) reconstruct the original "The cat ate a mouse."
Similarly, abaS (or abS) can be converted to aS, but aS cannot be 
(without an extra information) converted to abaS.
See also below the comments to lists of triads and lists of pairs versus 
lists of unstructured elements.

> The video shows you how to convert both to a tree.

The idea of converting aS to a tree is as absurd as the idea of 
applauding by single hand.

>> But even this grammar still is not entirely equivalent to a naturalistic
>> grammar, because it does not say that there are two levels:
>> 1) the level of clauses, whose heads are verbs, on which depend several
>> phrases in different cases (except of genitive (and of vocative, which
>> stays outside of a sentence));
>> 2) the level of phrases, whose heads are substantives, on which depend
>> several adjectives or genitives.
>
> It looks to me that you’re describing a phrase structure grammar (PSG).
> It’s not a naturalistic grammar, but a tool among others to analyse language.

It is a model developed to describe natlangs. Of course, there can be 
other models with different level of simplification, or optimalised for 
different types of languages.

> BTW how do you know that heads of natlang clauses must be verbs,
> as many clauses don’t even have a verb?

I is a matter of terminology. If a clause does not contain explicitly a 
finite verb, then we can postulate a implicit ("invisible") copula.
Natural languages are not optimized for literal unambiguity, but for 
conciseness. (This can be compared to using jpg images instead of 
loss-less png.) Popularly speaking, if the literally meaning of a 
sentence is so ungrammatical or nonsensical (in the consequence of 
omitting some morpheme) that each listener/reader can notice it, and if 
it is clear which meaningful sentence is closest to it, then such 
shortened sentence may be used for brevity.

> Also, would you say natlangs have concrete heads,
> or rather that heads are part of a possible interpretation?

Some descriptions take the subject and predicate to be elements on the 
same level. Then a sentence has a virtual head/root, not represented by 
any word (maybe we could say that it is represented by its terminator 
(in pronunciation expressed by intonation), the full stop (and its 
opening counterpart, the capitalized first letter)):

<sentence>
   <subject>The cat</subject>
   <predicate>ate <object>a mouse</object></predicate>
   .
</sentence>

Another model has the verb for its head:
<clause>
   <subject>The cat</subject>
   ate
   <object>a mouse</predicate>
   .
</clause>

Each of these markups (or of other similar ones) can be converted to 
another, taking in account only the tags and without further analysis of 
the plain text.

>> Although such list of triads can contain enough information to be
>> converted into a naturalistic language, it itself is not a
>> human-friendly language. A system based of pairs would be even more
>> human-unfriendly.
>
> Maybe, but this is engelanging, not natlanging...
> so I take it you’re trying to tell me I’m doing an excellent job :)

But your article claims to discuss that all languages are similar in 
their core structure. The list of edges is a structure dissimilar to 
natlangs (although it can bear the same information).

>> For that input, it draws the same thing which is entered, only places
>> the pairs vertically instead of horizontally, and colors them.
>
> I said: that’s the parse of the sentence! There’s no online CKY/CYK parser that I’m aware of. But here’s the grammar for your parser of choice:
>
> S -> A

I suppose that this is a typo and you meant S -> AS (or SA).

> A -> want-event | agent1 | i-person | want-event | patient1 | read-event | agent2 | anyone-person | patient 2 | book | possessor | polarity | negation | carelessness
>
> And here’s the test sentence:
> want-event agent1 i-person want-event patient1 read-event agent2 anyone-person read-event patient2 book possessor i-person want-event polarity negation read-event manner carelessness

Which is not meaningful without extra information/rules.

>>> graph{
>>> want_event--agent1--i_person;
>>> want_event--patient1--read_event--patient2--book--i_person;
>>> read_event--agent2--anyone_person;
>>> want_event--polarity--negation;
>>> read_event--manner--carelessness;
>>> }
>>>
>>> So you see what we have here in this message are just word lists of different length.
>>> But it's just as difficult to see how come the graph is actually just a list,
>
>> A list of triads (or rather quads, because there is also that number (or
>> other ID) which identifies nodes with the same name), not a list of
>> elements without an internal structure.
>
> Of course it’s not a list without structure. But that structure depends on its definition.
> Remember that ‘list’ is your word, not mine, so I suppose it’s up to you what you mean by it.

I suppose that "list" is a term clear enough; the only misunderstanding 
can be whether it is an unordered list (set) or ordered list (vector).
In this context, it is an ordered list; it bears the same information as 
unordered list of pairs (value, index).

> I’m saying you can create that particular graph (or any other) by just putting nouns one after another.

Which is not true without an extra information (which can be for example 
the fixed length of the substructure).

> If you mean I can’t because there are e.g. "--" symbols,

Yes, the separators (and brackets) are vital part of the structure. This 
information can be expressed in many different forms (a standalone 
separator, a marker on the head/root, fixed length of the 
substructure...), which can seem self-evident, but we shall be aware of 
them and include them into the description of the grammar.

> you should think whether it would be equally computational to make a parser which assumes that relation without having to manually add the symbols?

How want you to parse for example the element "want_eventpolaritynegation"?

> What's more important to see is that the structure describes triads only because the chosen graph was based on triads.>
> All possible graphs are not based on triads.

Of course, you can decrease the length of the vector from 3 to 2, but 
not to 1, similarly as there can be bidirectional transformations 
between a multi-level signal and two-level signals, but an "one-level 
signal" is impossible.

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