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CONLANG  March 2016, Week 3

CONLANG March 2016, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Engelang animation video

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Mar 2016 06:10:16 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (181 lines)

Hi, thanks for comments - been away for my speech :)

> Natural languages are not optimized for literal unambiguity, but for 
conciseness. 

Here's an interesting point. There are of course different types of conciseness - I take it we're talking about not repeating a lot of words in order to make a structure unambiguous. I guess the truth is that a degree of conciseness is desirable, but also a degree of unambiguity is desirable. Optimality could be a matter of a compromise between the two variables.

>> abaS is a model within aS. All abaS structures are also aS structures.

> Similarly, abaS (or abS) can be converted to aS, but aS cannot be 
(without an extra information) converted to abaS.

Depends what you mean by extra information. As for the standard definition, aS generates all abaS and abS strings. In fact, it's the other way round that may not work; abaS for instance has some important limitations: minimum and all-the-way structure of triads, and no joining between b's allowed, so you couldn't possibly express all aS sentences in abaS (as described) even with extra information.

>> The video shows you how to convert both to a tree.

> The idea of converting aS to a tree is as absurd as the idea of 
applauding by single hand.

You do it by clapping your one hand against something :)

>> It looks to me that you’re describing a phrase structure grammar (PSG).
> It’s not a naturalistic grammar, but a tool among others to analyse language.

> It is a model developed to describe natlangs. Of course, there can be 
other models with different level of simplification, or optimalised for 
different types of languages.

At any rate no one here is using PSGs for minimalism (Chomsky actually is). You only end up getting more modest results because the method itself is not minimalistic. Even Wikipedia says dependencies are more minimalistic.

>> BTW how do you know that heads of natlang clauses must be verbs,
> as many clauses don’t even have a verb?

> I is a matter of terminology. If a clause does not contain explicitly a 
finite verb, then we can postulate a implicit ("invisible") copula.

Sure, but how do you know the results you get are not artefacts of your method? This is something you can do in NLP, but it's not necessarily a precise description of what is really taking place in speech.

>> Also, would you say natlangs have concrete heads,
> or rather that heads are part of a possible interpretation?

> Some descriptions take the subject and predicate to be elements on the 
same level. Then a sentence has a virtual head/root, not represented by 
any word (maybe we could say that it is represented by its terminator 
(in pronunciation expressed by intonation), the full stop (and its 
opening counterpart, the capitalized first letter)):

<sentence>
   <subject>The cat</subject>
   <predicate>ate <object>a mouse</object></predicate>
   .
</sentence>

Another model has the verb for its head:
<clause>
   <subject>The cat</subject>
   ate
   <object>a mouse</predicate>
   .
</clause>

> Each of these markups (or of other similar ones) can be converted to 
another, taking in account only the tags and without further analysis of 
the plain text.

True, these are things you can do. (BTW I would personally only ever use the second description.) Note that Xml is not used for linguistics. I see what you mean, but here's what I think people would rather do (cf. your first example):

(sentence(subject(the/cat))(predicate(ate)(object(a/mouse))))

You could basically read them as they are. However the online tree generators 

http://mshang.ca/syntree/
and
http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/

require using squared brackets, so I normally convert it to 

[sentence[subject[the/cat]][predicate[ate][object[a/mouse]]]]

>>> Although such list of triads can contain enough information to be
>> converted into a naturalistic language, it itself is not a
>> human-friendly language. A system based of pairs would be even more
>> human-unfriendly.
>
>> Maybe, but this is engelanging, not natlanging...
> so I take it you’re trying to tell me I’m doing an excellent job :)

> But your article claims to discuss that all languages are similar in 
their core structure. The list of edges is a structure dissimilar to 
natlangs (although it can bear the same information).

For a kind of late prediction, I think it would be fair to say that using nothing but the very basic building blocks of languages does not allow for a viable language itself. However, as I've demonstrated, the basic building blocks are - miraculously - sufficient to express anything natlangs do, which raises the question why natlangs are so much more complicated, although we haven't asked that question here - my professors seemed to be more interested in something like that (they're more into cognitive linguistics etc.). I'd say I'm going to have to take one thing at a time, which is not the case of the paper which puts together many of the things I worked with last year... while here the emphasis is in language engineering. 

As for the list of edges, it's an artefact of using AMR semantic representations as a tool. I need a tool for demonstrating meaningfulness. The triad structure is used in formal semantics, but it's logically only an arbitrary format. There could be one less or infinitely more identifiers between the predicate and the core argument if we look at logical possibilities. Anyway, I think the format is plausible, and comparing to Japanese which would just replace agent and patient with the obligatory adpositions ga and o, or many languages that use nominative for agent and accusative for patient, while English among many others uses word order (ARG0 vs. ARG1) for marking.

I see three proposed problems here for aS (or possibly abS/abaS, depends which one you mean):

(1) it's repetitive/non-concise in a way that natlangs are not
(2) it's unambiguous while natlangs are not
(3) it requires the kind of edge marking that is not (always) present in natlangs

Let's take an English example "Mary is playing badminton in the garden and John is playing badminton in the garden." The example is grammatical but not concise: normally you omit the repeated parts to make it: "Mary and John are playing cards inside the shed."

An aS translation is: "play agent1 Mary, & agent1, & agent2, play agent2 John, play patient cards, play inside garden."

To solve problem (1) we omit all repeated symbols and get: "agent1 Mary, &, agent2 John, play patient cards, inside garden."

The sentence is still grammatical in aS, but it has now become ambiguous, so problem (2) is solved.

What's more, English doesn't have agent and patient marking particles, so we omit them as well to solve (3). Removing the commas, the sentence we get is: "Mary & John play cards inside shed." Note that this is still an aS sentence. It's really hard to say what the difference between aS and natlangs is, as natlangs - all languages - are restricted versions of aS.

>> S -> A

> I suppose that this is a typo and you meant S -> AS (or SA).

True, should have been S -> AS | A (or S -> AS | λ).

>> A -> want-event | agent1 | i-person | want-event | patient1 | read-event | agent2 | anyone-person | patient 2 | book | possessor | polarity | negation | carelessness
>
> And here’s the test sentence:
> want-event agent1 i-person want-event patient1 read-event agent2 anyone-person read-event patient2 book possessor i-person want-event polarity negation read-event manner carelessness

> Which is not meaningful without extra information/rules.

Well no, it's only meaningful by a given definition. This requirement is obvious for logical/mathematical expressions, but taken for granted when you're using your native language. The decoding of natlang semantics is a huge task in linguistics, but I don't see any reason why artificial languages are different in that there have to be coded semantic definitions. BTW PSG's are not considered an adequate tool for semantics. In my deviating opinion they're actually just fine, but as mentioned, I'm not using PSGs for other reasons.

> I suppose that "list" is a term clear enough; the only misunderstanding 
can be whether it is an unordered list (set) or ordered list (vector).
In this context, it is an ordered list; it bears the same information as 
unordered list of pairs (value, index).

I'm sure you're completely right. It's just that you're using coding terminology instead of linguistics terminology. If I wanted to know what 'list' means I would just look it up in a general dictionary. There's no reason to assume we're talking programming languages. 

>> I’m saying you can create that particular graph (or any other) by just putting nouns one after another.

> Which is not true without an extra information (which can be for example 
the fixed length of the substructure).

Why should the length be fixed? I'm using set description (what Venn diagrams do) for syntax as well as semantics: something is within something. There are no logical length restrictions to this structure. The only limitation is that circle diagrams are not good for describing loops/cycles for which purpose we convert them to a graph format. It's logically all the same however. 

>> If you mean I can’t because there are e.g. "--" symbols,

> Yes, the separators (and brackets) are vital part of the structure. This 
information can be expressed in many different forms (a standalone 
separator, a marker on the head/root, fixed length of the 
substructure...), which can seem self-evident, but we shall be aware of 
them and include them into the description of the grammar.

Correct. I figure there are two kinds of semantics: the first is the obvious word/lexical semantics. The second is a kind of structural semantics which needs to be defined for the purpose. What I'm using is a hierarchical dependency, similar to a graph description e.g. for a company structure. In a sentence analysis the sentence is the head set which includes directly a number of subsets/subelements and indirectly all the elements included in the above subsets/subelements. It's logically no different from the Xml description: there's a sentence, and in the sentence there's an event, and in the event there's a subject, object and a place, etc. 

Note that you can make additional requirements, such as allowing only for triad structures where the second element is a role marker for the third, but I don't because I don't consider it necessary. The AMR example graph I'm using does that however.

>> you should think whether it would be equally computational to make a parser which assumes that relation without having to manually add the symbols?

> How want you to parse for example the element "want_eventpolaritynegation"?

Buy just returning the customary spaces so we know there are three separate semantemes. These are arranged into the circle diagram/graph/tree according to given rules which can be in the form of a prosaic description. Using the production system it would be something like 

x -> y
y -> z

etc.

or 

n -> n+1

where n is the order of the set. So the first word is the set n, the second is a subset of depth n+1 and the third one is a subset/element of depth n+1+1.

>> What's more important to see is that the structure describes triads only because the chosen graph was based on triads.>
> All possible graphs are not based on triads.

> Of course, you can decrease the length of the vector from 3 to 2, but 
not to 1, similarly as there can be bidirectional transformations 
between a multi-level signal and two-level signals, but an "one-level 
signal" is impossible.

That's kind of a matter of definition. You can always say that the aS phrases I'm giving are in practice either an aa or aaa or aaaa (etc.) structure. So the grammar should in all honesty be S -> A | AA | AAA | AAAA | AAAAA | AAAAAA | AAAAAAA etc. ad infinitum. However, this is formalised as S -> AS | λ by standard convention.

Also, there's a concrete difference between e.g. AAS and AS in that the shortest possible AAS phrase includes two symbols while an AS phrase is allowed to have just one. In practice you can for instance say "Damn!" in AS, but not in AAS/ABS or ABAS.

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April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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